Why all the 40 caliber bashing?

[Jeff1000]

Once upon a time a coach observed, "You play the way you train! You play the way you train!" Apparently he thought that if in general we trained appropriately with specific attention to each upcoming game/opponent, we'd get better on the field results come game day.

Maybe the problem with a low percentage of hits relative to shots fired by policemen stems from less than ideal training. And... maybe there's more to it. Policemen do not routinely shoot people. Many officers go their entire careers without drawing their weapon except at a range. Good for them. Police work is not a game. There is no score to be kept.

In the incident that recently occurred in NYC, some have opined that the policemen did a poor job of hitting the criminal. Oddly, he was hit many times. Maybe they should have just double-tapped him and then stepped back and looked to see if he cooperated by collapsing? Or... maybe under the circumstances they did about the best that could be expected from policemen who do not routinely slap leather and come up shooting at armed criminals at the Empire State building?

Perhaps it is a bit extreme to suppose that in each and ever instance where a police officer must fire his weapon that he will do everything exactly as a magazine pundit supposes is best, etc.

I've been thinking about this too, trying to come up with a theory. The training idea is a compelling argument, but how come among equally trained athletes, on a football field for example, some players perform better than others, or certain players seem to rise to the occasion when the game is in the balance? It might be something more than training, something intrinsic to the player that has nothing to do with training.

Also, I keep coming back to this idea that a policeman is at work, trying to earn a paycheck. It's not like he's in a situation where he's trying to protect the lives of loved ones. Maybe if a policeman was trying to protect his wife or children he might be a better shot. Maybe I'm reaching too much.

Still, I have to believe that there's more to performing well under stress than just training.

 

[StatesRightist]

I've been thinking about this too, trying to come up with a theory. The training idea is a compelling argument, but how come among equally trained athletes, on a football field for example, some players perform better than others, or certain players seem to rise to the occasion when the game is in the balance? It might be something more than training, something intrinsic to the player that has nothing to do with training.

Also, I keep coming back to this idea that a policeman is at work, trying to earn a paycheck. It's not like he's in a situation where he's trying to protect the lives of loved ones. Maybe if a policeman was trying to protect his wife or children he might be a better shot. Maybe I'm reaching too much.

Still, I have to believe that there's more to performing well under stress than just training.

That may be but there is no one in the Pros, no Olympic athletes etc who started playing their sport the year before.

 

[jbremount]

What caliber guns did the New York police use in the Empire State Building shooting? This shooting should also tell you something about the bullet's /caliber ability to do real work on the streets.

 

[brucev]

I've been thinking about this too, trying to come up with a theory. The training idea is a compelling argument, but how come among equally trained athletes, on a football field for example, some players perform better than others, or certain players seem to rise to the occasion when the game is in the balance? It might be something more than training, something intrinsic to the player that has nothing to do with training.

Also, I keep coming back to this idea that a policeman is at work, trying to earn a paycheck. It's not like he's in a situation where he's trying to protect the lives of loved ones. Maybe if a policeman was trying to protect his wife or children he might be a better shot. Maybe I'm reaching too much.

Still, I have to believe that there's more to performing well under stress than just training.

Some days end in "Why?" The same with any incident involving people. When it's over one is left asking, "Why?" The answers that arise are always reflective of the experience of the person speaking/writing.

So on the practice field and later in a game, some players will outperform others. That's human nature. Teams are comprised of those who coaches, etc. determine will best work together and produce a winning result. Of course the owners make the final decisions since they pay the bills.

A policeman is not playing a game where the only thing that matters is the score, etc. He is someone trusted by society with a responsibility to keep the peace. That entails far more than simply strapping on a gun and pinning on a badge. All that policemen need to know to properly do their job involves far more than simply being able to draw and fire, etc. In reality that is a very small part of their work. The overwhelmingly routine day to day experience of the police is much more dealing with the public, etc. The officers who successfully dealt with the criminal at the Empire State Building are to be commended for doing so in such a way that he was not able to kill/injure either of the police officers or anyone else in the vicinity. This is not to discount the injuries of those hit by rounds fired by the police. But all the second guessing/arm chair quarterbacking about how the officers were somehow to be criticized for not putting all their shots into the assailant w/ no runs, drips, errors, etc. is just second guessing/armchair quarterbacking which is closely related to back seat driving, hindsight, etc.

 

[Jeff1000]

Some days end in "Why?" The same with any incident involving people. When it's over one is left asking, "Why?" The answers that arise are always reflective of the experience of the person speaking/writing.

So on the practice field and later in a game, some players will outperform others. That's human nature. Teams are comprised of those who coaches, etc. determine will best work together and produce a winning result. Of course the owners make the final decisions since they pay the bills.

A policeman is not playing a game where the only thing that matters is the score, etc. He is someone trusted by society with a responsibility to keep the peace. That entails far more than simply strapping on a gun and pinning on a badge. All that policemen need to know to properly do their job involves far more than simply being able to draw and fire, etc. In reality that is a very small part of their work. The overwhelmingly routine day to day experience of the police is much more dealing with the public, etc. The officers who successfully dealt with the criminal at the Empire State Building are to be commended for doing so in such a way that he was not able to kill/injure either of the police officers or anyone else in the vicinity. This is not to discount the injuries of those hit by rounds fired by the police. But all the second guessing/arm chair quarterbacking about how the officers were somehow to be criticized for not putting all their shots into the assailant w/ no runs, drips, errors, etc. is just second guessing/armchair quarterbacking which is closely related to back seat driving, hindsight, etc.

Yes, the police have a tough job, no doubt about it, and after reading your post I think I was amiss by saying that they just work for a paycheck. There are, afterall, easier ways to earn a paycheck. And yes it easy to armchair quarterback but we could never know what it was like to be in that situation, in New York, unless we were actually in it. Maybe the situation could have turned out better, but on the other hand, it could have turned out much worse. It is what it is.

 

[Glenn H]

Policework

I know there are a lot of LEO and former LEO on the board, I was once for a while a long time ago but I can only speak for myself.

Firearms are an important part of the job but far from the top of the list for most officers.

The social skills, the legal work, the paperwork, the departmental politics, the routine soul crushing contact with people at their worst, both the offender or the victims, dealing with the sense of entitlement that most of the population has (why aren't you out catching criminals instead of writing me a ticket for 15 over in a school zone) all are more commonly dealt with.

I was very fortunate, I never had to shoot at anyone and the one guy who took a potshot at me was a long way away and drunk.

I did have a couple of situations where I was ready to shoot and to tell you the truth I was scared. My training took over and, as I said I didn't have to fire, but I was ready to.

Gunfights are combat. I am not going to criticize because I wasn't there. We could hope and pray that each shooting incident would happen in perfect circumstances.

But that ain't going to happen.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Interesting thread, but personally I think the .40 is catching on and will be a preferred round in the near future.

For years I shot full size and compact 9mm's, and .45's and like them both when loaded properly. Then I got my first .40 (compact 4014) and absolutely love it, and shoot it just about as well as my 9 mm's. It is easily just as accurate.

I really get tired of hearing the "snappy" comments, or the "short and weak" by the 10 mm fanboys. Maybe it has a little more "snap" than a 9mm, but is an easily controllable round in the right gun for a trained shooter.

Around where I live, more and more of the law enforcement departments seem to be switching to .40's. I see a lot of SIG's and M&P's these days, as well as the ubiquitous (and in my opinion, terrible) Glocks. I'm also seeing several departments switching to the SIG's with .357 SIG. All of the officers I've talked to with the .357 SIG love them.

As far as the NYPD shooting goes, all I can say about the above comments is that unfortunately, many police officers don't practice a lot with their duty weapon. That comes from a few LEO's I know that take it seriously, and that do put in a lot of range time. Their biggest gripe is that a fair amount of officers don't really like shooting, and just do the minimal amount to qualify and meet department requirements. It drive's the enthusiasts nuts. One guy is a close friend of mine. He's also a serious hunter (my main waterfowl hunting buddy) and competition shooter. I really think the guys who grew up hunting, and that continue to do so, probably in many cases make better cops.

 

[Miami_JBT]

You folks and your caliber wars.... Pppffff... I'll stick with all of 'em! I carry the following calibers off duty for self defense.

.38 Special
.357 Magnum
9x19mm
.40 S&W
.45 ACP
.45 Colt
10mm Auto
.45 GAP (hold over from another agency, currently use it in my S&W 625)

I love them all and enjoy shooting them all. I'm only 5'4 and 160lbs yet I'm accurate with what I carry. On duty I currently carry .40 S&W and in the past I've carried 9x19mm and .45 GAP. I cut my teeth on the .40 S&W as a young pup when it first came out.

The one thing I've learned is that a pistol (no matter the cartridge) is a poor excuse for a self defense weapon. Rifles and Shotguns are where it's at. The pistol is simply carried and used more often due to it ease of carry and concealment. There is no mystical "one shot drop perfect round" in a pistol platform.

Train with what you're comfortable and confident with and don't stop engaging the threat(s) until it is down an out of the fight.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Perhaps it is a bit extreme to suppose that in each and ever instance where a police officer must fire his weapon that he will do everything exactly as a magazine pundit supposes is best, etc.

Not at all. That is what is expected of armed citizens, why not the police?

He did not appear to be someone who was overly concerned with firearms.

Sadly, this seems to be the case with far too many police officers. I'm not a cop but I socialize with many and I have found few that have any interest in their tools and it doesn't matter which tool with the possible exception of their car.

"Bob, I heard your department is now issuing the new sub-space communicator." "Dunno about that. They gave me a new radio, it's black."

Mechanics can tell you why they want an Ingersoll-Rand impact gun over a Snap-On or vice-versa. Carpenters will tell you why they prefer Makita over DeWalt. Programmers can get fanatical over which editor they use.

However, most police officers of my acquaintance view firearms practice as an onerous task and moan about having to go to the range.

I used to belong to a small, competition oriented shooting club*. Long time members were doctors, lawyers, computer weenies, and even a few police officers and deputy sheriffs. The chief range officer was a police officer who competed at the national level in PPC.

Every year, the club would admit new members and among those members would be a handful of police officers. At some point during the year, those police officers would show up at a match with their duty weapon, all full of piss and vinegar because, after all, they were highly trained police officers. Sadly, they would never be seen again.

I don't know if it was that they were embarrassed by being outshot by a bunch of "civilians" as the police like to call regular people. Maybe they figured that they already knew everything and had nothing to learn.

Granted, the average police officer uses his gun rarely in his career. Real life is like Adam-12 and not CSI: Miami but that gun is still a very important tool.

*The purpose of the club was to promote shooting competition but the club matches were anything but cutthroat. Shooters of all levels were welcome from the tyro to the master. Every weekend theres a match or two of some sort: pins, plates, bullseye, ppc. No prizes, just bragging rights.

 

[Jeff1000]

Fat Old Guy, I keep coming back to this idea that guns are just part of the job of being a police officer. And like most of us who work, the last thing we want is our jobs to encroach on our free time. Unless a police officer has an extreme passion for firearms, to go the range in his off time is probably seen as working overtime rather than enjoying time off. Guns are so equated with police work that having anything to do with guns on days off might be viewed as just more police work. Of course there must be exceptions to this, but generally speaking.

Just as short order cook might not feel like cooking when he's at home, a police officer might not feel like handling his gun in his free time.

FWIW.

 

[blujax01]

Unfortunately the public perception is that "only cops should have guns" because after all, they're the experts. A recent letter to my local paper arguing that the 2nd amendment was an antiquated idea went so far as to say only police and soldiers have any business carrying a gun.
And we will never convince them otherwise.

 

[CoMF]

Just as short order cook might not feel like cooking when he's at home, a police officer might not feel like handling his gun in his free time.

So in other words, the shoemaker's children go barefoot?

 

[Miami_JBT]

LE went from the .38 after the registered magnums came out, many years before they switched to the 9mm.

As for the military there are a myriad of stories/reasons. I do agree NATO was an important part of the equation.

US law enforcement for the most part was using .38 Special up to the Wonder Nine era. Yes, a lot of agencies issued or allowed the use of .357 Magnum chambered revolvers but only allowed the use .38 Special ammunition.

Miami Dade PD is a prime example of that policy.

 

[Jeff1000]

So in other words, the shoemaker's children go barefoot?

Heck no, they just have to buy their shoes like everyone else.

 

[les strat]

Personally, I do not like the different recoil of .40. I can shoot .45 and 9mm all day, but something about .40 fatigues me. Go figure.

BTW, since 9mm was subject to all the dissing years ago, SD rounds in +p have upped the game to the level of .40 cal. There are some super rounds being offered nowadays for 9mm. They flat out perform.

I just like 9mm for EDC because I can shoot a lot more of it than my other calibers, so I stay profficient with it. In this economy, that matter a lot to those of use that hit the range frequently. I am very accurate with that caliber, and that is what matters more than anything.

 

[Glenn H]

Neither fish nor fowl?

Back in the wondernine days there was a host of blather about 9MM vs .45. One's standing in the community was aligned with caliber. It was nearly as bad as getting two baseball fans one NL and one Al discussing the designated hitter.

Then the .40 came along and it wasn't 9 or .45 so both sides heaped poo on it.

The previous is uncontaminated by the thought process.

 

[mkk41]

I just assumed, sorry if I made a mistake. I'm at the beginning of the learning curve. Thanks for the heads up.

No , no , no! You are quite correct. On some gun forums and in some magazines , the so-called experts will tell you a 9mm autopistol is beneath contempt , will not do the job and get you killed deader than dead , BUT , will swear that a .38 Special wheelgun is perfectly OKee-dokee.

From the Remington website;

.38 Spec.+P 125gr JHP = 975fps & 264ft.lbs.

9mm +P 124gr JHP + 1180fps & 384ft.lbs.

Now I carry a .380 or 9mm Mak most of the time , but I also occasionally carry a .38 J-frame of small 9mmP (Star Firestar) and don't think twice about it.

As for the .40 S&W. I like it so much that my Colts stay in the safe and my CZ-75 in .40 S&W has been my nitestand gun for the past 9 years. It's got nitesites and is loaded with Glasers. Spare mag has 155gr Winchester Silvertips in case of Vampires. And if it gets used and probably confiscated afterward , or (perish the thought) stolen , I can replace it easy enough. I won't be as upset as if I lost one of my prized Colt .45s.