Why all the poor quality in new, expensive guns?

[canoeguy]

I have been reading with interest all the problems shooters are encountering with their new S&W AR type .22 rifles, looks like at least 25% have to go back to the factory to make them right. Price on these rifles at gun shows seem to be around $445.

The latest "American Rifleman" magazine did an article and test on .380 pistols, nine different pistols were tested, all had a variety of malfunctions except the Rohrbaugh .380 ($1,150 MSRP!). The Ruger LCP malfunctioned so much they had a hard time getting through the testing process.

I am having problems with a new Marlin 39A .22, it's on its way back to Marlin with for the second time with failure to fire, failure to extract problems. Paid full price, $550 expecting quality and dependability, disappointed!

Since 2006, I have bought only four new guns, a Ruger .22/45 ($225), a Henry H001 .22 lever rifle($249), a CZ 452 .22 bolt rifle ($383 OTD) and the Marlin Model 39A, the most expensive and the most problematic. I've had zero problems with the Ruger, CZ and Henry.

I bought a used Sears Model 25 semi-auto .22 (paid $90 for it) that sold for $18 new in 1964, it is 100% reliable and accurate today, 46 years later.

I think from now on, I'm only buying used proven guns from the time frame 1948-1980.

 

[Leonard]

I only buy older Smiths its all about production, keeping costs down and adding to the bottom line.

 

[Vegetaman]

For some reason, as price goes up, quality goes down. Manufacturers think that if they can save a nickel on a part, that it'll be great (even if they wind up having to replace them ALL on down the line). Lack of foresight, really.

 

[Steave]

For many years I've preferred buying used gun to new guns, I can't even remember the last new gun I bought.

 

[Wayne02]

I am having problems with a new Marlin 39A .22, it's on its way back to Marlin with for the second time with failure to fire, failure to extract problems. Paid full price, $550 expecting quality and dependability, disappointed!

You are not the only one having problems with this gun. The Marlin box says, "proudly manufactured by American craftsmen" or some such bs. If this gun was made by 'American craftsmen' then it is no wonder we have lost our manufacturing base. My example looks/functions like it was manufactured by a 12 year old. Last time I checked Marlin could not even be bothered to put an email contact address on their contact page.

I was ready to pull the trigger on one of those Marlin .44's in stainless about the time I received the 39A, but no more. They don't deserve my business. We like to lament about how China has ruined our manufacturing base yet we have American manufacturers turning out craptastic guns that not only have poor fit and finish but don't function like they should.

I bought a used Sears Model 25 semi-auto .22 (paid $90 for it) that sold for $18 new in 1964, it is 100% reliable and accurate today, 46 years later.

I always take my old Sears semi-auto .22 with me when I go to the range with the Marlin so I have at least one gun that works for sure. I can't remember what model this things is but it belonged to my grandfather and has three different colors of house paint on it and is quite dirty, but continues to work perfectly.

That article on the .380's is a very poor reflection on the state of quality in new manufactured guns. My wife and I were discussing this and I explained to her that sometimes you have to run 200 rounds through a gun, or try different ammo for it to work properly. This did not compute with her as she doesn't have an emotional attachment to guns and views them as just tools. No different than the hammer or wrench in her tool box. I of course was tempted to jump into the classic firearm enthusists excuse mode...

'Guns may need to be broken in before they work'

'It's a mechanical item and mechanical items have problems'

'Every manufacturerer turns out lemons from time to time'

'All new guns need some tinkering'

'You can fix it yourself! Just go to X website and learn how others have fixed their defective guns. It's easy!'

'The guy testing the gun is an idiot and is doing it wrong'

'Did you give the manufacturer a chance to make it right? Whats that, you only contacted the manufacturer twice!!? Clearly you are doing it wrong and should have contacted them three times'

'Gun manufacturers can't control the ammo used in them'

'The ammo manufacturers are the problem, clearly they are doing it wrong'

'My brand X, model Y has seventy billion rounds though it and I never had any problems, thus YOU must be doing it wrong'

'Just send it in, they will make it right'

And the all time classic gun guy excuse for poor firearm quality... 'Yeah but they have Great customer service'

Imagine if you purchased a new car and the manufacturer told you that it may take 200 start cycles before the car would reliably start every time you turned the key. Or if you purchased a new dvd player that didn't work correctly and you were told to try a different movie disc, or plug the machine into a different outlet and see if it worked then.

Pretty good rant if I do say so myself. Probably give it a 8 out of 10, could have used a stronger finish.

I guess it is like everything else in life, we the consumers get the quality levels we accept.

 

[tripledipper]

Tracy,
You are not alone with your 39A problems as you already probably know. Marlinowners forum and rimfire central are full of similar complaints and suggested fixes. They suggest quality control failure in producing later models and poor feedback from the factory. I guess its the luck of the draw.

 

[sipowicz]

Whenever I would say to my mom "they don't make things like they used to" she would say, "they never did."

 

[Steave]

I was unaware of all the issues with the S&W M&P .22 rifle, while I've never handled one, a friend of mine, whose opinion I respect, told me it was a very well built rifle and much better than the Colt AR .22 rifle.

A year or so ago an one of my wife's friends husband had me order one of the GSG-5 MP5 clone .22 rifles. I was not at all impressed with it, it just looked cheap to me. Frankly, I'd much rather have a 10/22 for half the money or spend a bit more anf buy something like a Winchester 63, which will last forever.

 

[n4zov]

This is an excellent discussion and one that is long overdue. The American Rifleman test of .380's revealed exactly ONE self-defense pistol that functioned 100% out of the box. That is a terrible indictment of American manufacturing and corporate irresponsibility. The vast majority of those .380 handguns are bought by people who have no idea about firing 200 rounds for break-in and other issues that are familiar to members of this forum. They spend $300-900 for a gun to be used for self-defense, and they assume that it works. What an incredibly naive idea!

And Smith and Wesson is certainly not guiltless. They have been attempting to clone the 70+ year old Walther PP design for at least seven years and still haven't figured out how to make the gun work reliably.

Most gun manufacturers seem to have abandoned factory quality control and testing in favor of consumer quality control. The gun buyer figures out there is a problem with a new gun and returns it to the factory for repair. The bean counters have determined that it is cheaper to fix production mistakes than to avoid them in the first place.

 

[sigp220.45]

I did a thread a while back about problems I was having with a new Browning Buckmark carbine I had purchased for my daughter. After a trip back to Browning and a suggestion to keep trying different ammunition until I got to one that worked, I took the loss and sold it for $275 with full disclosure to a local shop. I think I paid over $500 for it. I then found a very nice early 10/22 Sporter and gave that to my daughter. It has been flawless.

I rarely buy new in the box guns anymore.

 

[Raider]

Last new gun I bought was a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun about 6 years ago. I had to smooth it up a bit (new gun so I shouldn't have) but it works flawlessly. All other gun purchases have been used and manufactured prior to the mid 80's. I guess that quality control is just crappy - cheaper to fix it than do it right in the first place.

Charlie

 

[Marshall 357]

I agree,they are making guns cheaper,the only new gun a bought last year was a Rem.700 in .308. Still a well built rifle with no plastic parts or unwanted safeties.

 

[therevjay]

Why all the problems in new, expensive guns?

I don't know, or really care. I don't buy new guns. (much) I'm a collector not a shooter.

The only new gun I've bought in yrs was a Seecamp .32 ACP. Like 'em or not they work, 'straight out of the box.'

Larry Seecamp says. (BTW, can you talk to the CEO of S&W?) "If it doesen't work 'straight out of the box, we screwed up. Send it back, we'll fix it, or replace it."

Too many gun companys say crap like "Oh you have to fire at least 200 rds, to break it in" Whaaaat? Would you be satisfied with a oven that the maker said "Oh you'll have to ruin at least 20-30 dinners before you can expect it to work right"?

 

[Rule 303]

If you don't like poor, poor Quality Control and Send It Back to the Factoryism, don't buy a Kimber Pistol......
Its just the little things, like a New Kimber that won't run with Factory Ball of any make.

Rule 303

 

[Evil One]

If you don't like poor, poor Quality Control and Send It Back to the Factoryism, don't buy a Kimber Pistol......
Its just the little things, like a New Kimber that won't run with Factory Ball of any make.

Rule 303

I spend a LOT of time at ranges around the country...
The most malfunctions I see with a particular brand are Kimbers.
I can NOT figure out how the company is still going.


Jim

 

[GF]

If you don't like poor, poor Quality Control and Send It Back to the Factoryism, don't buy a Kimber Pistol......
Its just the little things, like a New Kimber that won't run with Factory Ball of any make.

Rule 303

Even those SAS pistols that were on every gun mag cover for 6 months!?!

GF

 

[R. G. Amos]

If you think the S&W .22 LR AR is poorly made, check the stories about the Colt imported .22 LR AR which is even more expensive than the S&W one.

What I find so frustrating is the fact that problems surface in even the most expensive guns. I had problems with a PC Doug Koenig 38 Spr 1911 (about $1800) and a Freedom Arms Mdl 83 (about $2000). You would think that the more expensive ones would be made with more care.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Sometimes fellers won't talk about problems with expensive items because it might be a "hit" to the pride factor. It doesn't matter if it is a car, gun, boat or so forth.

 

[Jellybean]

Why all the problems in new, expensive guns?

I don't know, or really care. I don't buy new guns. (much) I'm a collector not a shooter.

I don't buy new guns either, and I am a shooter and not a collector. I also like to dig around inside them and look how they're made, didn't like what I was seeing in the "new" models years ago. If I pickup something I like that has a problem I can usually fix it, but there are more and more choices that I avoid like the plague.

 

[Cyrano]

Don't have much experienc with 380s. I had an AMT that didn't work, even after a trip back to the factory for a stronger hammer spring. So I sold it. Got a Colt Mustang. Worked perfectly. However the aluminum frame began to peen after about 1500 rounds so I sold it too. Can't wait to try the litle SIG Mustang clone.