why are so many commercial 10mm rounds so weak?

[Racer X]

If we wanted .40 S&W powered loads, we would have purchased something chambered in .40 S&W. It would only be a few pennies more per round for the extra powder.

HUGE swing in power levels depending on the manufacturer. I'm not talking about boutique loads either. Commercial loads swing between 400 to around 650 lb/ft. .357 SIG loads are in that range. Really quite puzzling.

 

[Der Verminator]

Because many people want the ILLUSION of power more than they want the RECOIL that comes with ACTUAL power.

They can brag about their powerful gun while enjoying comfortable shooting.

 

[WR Moore]

On the lower level, you can blame the FBI. They adopted the 10 mm, but it was a reduced loading that the .40 S&W later equalled. Since the FBI ammo contract was big, and a lot of departments that jumped on the band wagon copied them exactly, a major chunk of the 10 mm ammo production was, ah, 10 mm Special.

Before we phased the 10mm out in 2006, the only ammo we could get in quantity was the FBI load. Then we couldn't even get that.

 

[reddog81]

It's much easier to shoot a box of 180 grain rounds going 1100 FPS versus shooting a box 220 bullets doing 1200 FS. The 220 grain bullets doing 1200 FPS look awesome on paper but aren't much fun unless you train with hot rounds on a very regular basis.

It makes more sense for ammo companies to put out ammo that people will shoot box after box rather than shoot a magazine through their gun and then stop because their wrist and palm sting.

 

[Racer X]

It's much easier to shoot a box of 180 grain rounds going 1100 FPS versus shooting a box 220 bullets doing 1200 FS. The 220 grain bullets doing 1200 FPS look awesome on paper but aren't much fun unless you train with hot rounds on a very regular basis.

It makes more sense for ammo companies to put out ammo that people will shoot box after box rather than shoot a magazine through their gun and then stop because their wrist and palm sting.

then you should have purchased a 9 or a 40.

I have a 357 revolver. I just shoot light 38 special loads, and practice with magnum loads to only get accustomed to recoil.

 

[Rich Richardson]

Have a Sig229 in 40 cal. I buy Underwood ammo that equals or betters 10mm and 357 Sig.

 

[oldman10mm]

The original Norma 10mm ammo had box specs of
-170JHP 1300fps
-200FMJ 1200fps

 

[reddog81]

then you should have purchased a 9 or a 40.

I have a 357 revolver. I just shoot light 38 special loads, and practice with magnum loads to only get accustomed to recoil.

Why? I can get a 10mm and get the best of both worlds

And I already have a dozen+ 9's, 45's, 357's, etc.

 

[AJ]

On the lower level, you can blame the FBI. They adopted the 10 mm, but it was a reduced loading that the .40 S&W later equalled. Since the FBI ammo contract was big, and a lot of departments that jumped on the band wagon copied them exactly, a major chunk of the 10 mm ammo production was, ah, 10 mm Special.

Before we phased the 10mm out in 2006, the only ammo we could get in quantity was the FBI load. Then we couldn't even get that.

The blame can be laid on the FBI's doorstep as WR stated. In 1986 after the FBI Shoot Out with Platt and Maddox. The FBI wanted something more powerful than the 9MM. They opted for the 10 MM and found that a lot of agents could not handle/control the 10 MM. So then the .40 cal was introduced as the next great cop round. As further stated lots of civilian folks want the 10 MM, but at reduced loading so it was easier to handle. Hence the problems now.

I reload for my 610 and load both fullhouse loads and softball loads. The softball loads are easier on my 70 year old hands that have been beat up by 44 Mag and .45 ACP (can we spell arthritis?).

 

[Homie]

The original Norma 10mm ammo had box specs of
-170JHP 1300fps
-200FMJ 1200fps

In an early DELTA ELITE the Norma 200 Gr. averaged 1139 for 5 shots.

 

[Mike0251]

Hand load here, 180g RNFP, AA#7, 1226 fps.
It's a 10mm as it should be!

 

[BB57]

Back in the day, .44 Magnum was the same way. CCI’s Blazer ammo in .44 Mag sold well because it was a mid range load - more of a long cased .44 Special.

But the buyers had the pleasure of shooting their .44 Mag with by-golly actual .44 Mag ammo and could stamp that on their man cards.

 

[Dave Lively]

The original Norma 10mm ammo had box specs of
-170JHP 1300fps
-200FMJ 1200fps

And out of real guns tested on YouTube it actually produced:
-170JHP 1219fps
-200FMJ 990fps

I remember the 170 grain Norma having a box velocity of 1400 fps but it has been many years since I shot it so I am not sure. In the early days of 10mm all I could find was the Norma and PMC ammo. The Norma ammo didn't live up the hype but was more powerful than the much less expensive PMC. Weak 10mm ammo is nothing new.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtg1Q6vP3k&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=2[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=3&t=1202s[/ame]

 

[Laketime]

The current generation prefer light weight guns and non magnum rounds. The 10 mm full power load is suited for a steel gun.

 

[Dave Lively]

If we wanted .40 S&W powered loads, we would have purchased something chambered in .40 S&W. It would only be a few pennies more per round for the extra powder.

The SAAMI spec for 10mm is 37500, 7% more than 35,000 PSI limit for 40 S&W. And the case is .1 inches longer. That isn't enough to produce the much higher power levels people now expect of 10mm compared to 40 S&W.

I was an early adopter of 10mm in the 80s and among the people I shot with it had a reputation for breaking guns. Particularly converted 45s like the Springfield Omega 10mm I had that broke twice before I traded it for a S&W 610. I remember reading in a gun magazine back then that the original ammo from Norma was loaded to much higher pressures, somewhere in the 43,000 PSI range. That early ammo actually did come pretty close to the advertised velocity. SAAMI saw all the broken guns and went with a reduced pressure limit. Norma never changed the numbers on the box but reduced the pressure. I haven't seen that anywhere online so it might have been pure speculation but it matches what I was seeing at the time.

And even that was too much for the FBI.

I don't believe velocity numbers from ammo makers unless I see or read an independent test somewhere. Because they often fall short of the actual numbers, particularly back in the 80s when chronographs were too expensive and finicky for most people to own. I feel the same way when I hear boutique ammo makers say their "full power" ammo is within SAAMI pressure limits. Maybe it is somehow possible but I want to see an independent test before I believe it and nobody but ammo makers have the equipment to measure pressure.

Guns have gotten better since those early guns in the 80s but a lot of people still have trouble when they try to feed their 10mm some super hot ammo from a boutique maker or their own handloads. A lot of guns work fine out of the box but having to use heavier recoil springs and making other modifications before the gun is reliable is all too common. The changes often match what people do to shoot 45 Super out of their guns designed for 45 ACP. Asking a light, polymer framed, striker fired gun to reliably fire a cartridge generating over 700 foot-lbs of energy is asking a lot. As a previous poster mentioned, ammo that powerful works better in an all steel gun with a heavy slide.

 

[sigp220.45]

The blame can be laid on the FBI's doorstep as WR stated. In 1986 after the FBI Shoot Out with Platt and Maddox. The FBI wanted something more powerful than the 9MM. They opted for the 10 MM and found that a lot of agents could not handle/control the 10 MM. So then the .40 cal was introduced as the next great cop round. As further stated lots of civilian folks want the 10 MM, but at reduced loading so it was easier to handle. Hence the problems now.
.

Makes a good story, just not a true one.

I came into the Bureau five years after the 4/11/86 shooting, and was a firearms instructor as a side duty for 20 years. I met some of the survivors as well as the FTU guys responsible for the 10mm.

There were two camps - heavy 9mm and .45 ACP. The 10mm was seen as a compromise. No full power 10mm was ever issued or considered. The FTU guys and the Ballistic Research guys took a 10mm case and started out low. When the 180 grain JHP went as deep as they wanted and expanded how they wanted it to they stopped and ordered a few million from Federal. That was the 180/950 load, later derided as 10mm Light. Funny thing, it worked great. Still does.

Of course later somebody realized they could use a shorter case that would fit in 9mm sized guns and the loved/hated .40 S&W was born.

I realize the internet loves the image of FBI Agents shrieking in terror, dropping their guns, and shaking their dainty wrists after touching off those fearsome 10mm rounds. Sorry though - never happened.

The FBI doesn’t issue ammo to other agencies, so any blame for adopting the .40 is on them. No need for blame, though. The .40 is a great round. Better than the 9mm, which has gained supremacy because it is cheaper.

For what its worth, most Agents I qualified loved the 1076 and many returned it under protest. I carried our other 10mm until a months before I retired.

 

[DR505]

Makes a good story, just not a true one.

Sig is correct.

John Hall was one of my academy instructors and had a chat or two with him in the Boardroom. He explained much about this whole topic.

Many of the agents I knew who had the 1076 would absolutely not give them up. When the Principal Firearms Instructor, or me (an assistant instructor) told them their 1076 was due for maintenance, they were smart enough to know that the gun vault would keep the 1076 and issue a Sig or Glock, so they conveniently kept "forgetting" to turn it in and held on to retirement.

 

[kraynky]

Reloading your own is the answer. My 610 will shoot my 40's when I want some plinking ammo, and my warmer home brewed 10mm when I want a thumper.

Just follow the manufacturer's reloading data, and don't try to be a modern day "Elmer Keith" with them.

Problem solved.

 

[CH4]

Buffalo Bore or role my own

 

[venomballistics]

On the lower level, you can blame the FBI. They adopted the 10 mm, but it was a reduced loading that the .40 S&W later equalled. Since the FBI ammo contract was big, and a lot of departments that jumped on the band wagon copied them exactly, a major chunk of the 10 mm ammo production was, ah, 10 mm Special.

Before we phased the 10mm out in 2006, the only ammo we could get in quantity was the FBI load. Then we couldn't even get that.

That's pretty much how I remember it panning out.
It was born a hot little number for those who were done asking nice. but the FBI Miami shootout drew it into an unintended development cycle where this "service load" emerged to disappoint us all