Why are we there?

[butchd]

Can you explain why we are sending investigaters to the Ukraine? I think there was one victim who had a dual citizenship, one of which was U.S. I can't wrap my old mind around it.

 

[Bkreutz]

Can you explain why we are sending investigaters to the Ukraine? I think there was one victim who had a dual citizenship, one of which was U.S. I can't wrap my old mind around it.

If I'm reading the news correctly (can't trust much there ) There are 2 US investigators going. 1 from Boeing because they made the plane, and 1 from the NTSB because they usually offer assistance in any commercial airline loss. I have my doubts that either will be allowed into the area because whoever is responsible doesn't want a lot of close scrutiny. I've also heard that both flight data recorders have already been removed from the area so the likelihood that they will ever be seen again is remote.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

Every aircraft accident is different, and we have always attempted to learn all that we could from the information from the accident investigation reports, documents, data, etc. The United States (includes the NTSB) is perhaps the best in the world in the conduct of these investigations. I believe that we also share the accident information with other countries.

However, the evidence at the crash site has already been compromised which will significantly diminish the potentially invaluable information that might have been gained.

There are also portable morgues that could have been used to ensure the maintenance of the dignity for all who lost their lives that day. The investigation teams also endeavor to identify and catalogue the personal effects for each person so that they can be delivered to the next of kin (relatives).

The locals have neither the resources nor the motivation to accomplish any of the above.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

The plane got shot down by a SAM-really no need to do an investigation of the debris to determine the cause of the crash. I don't think we need to be over there. In fact why don't we sit back and let the rest of the world do our heavy lifting for a change??? The only connection we have is that a 19 year old born in America but living in the Netherlands since the age of 5 was on the flight. No reason to stick out nose in it unless we plan to actually do something about it-and we all know that ain't gonna happen..

 

[Texas Star]

The FBI is supposedly also involved, to prove that a SAM did in fact shoot down the plane. But that has basically already been determined.

I can't discuss on this board why I think the US really got involved.

However, one news report said that a young US woman was on the plane, in addition to many Dutch (most probably with Indonesian blood), and others were on board, so the issue is an international one. (For those who don't know, Indonesia is largely what used to be the Dutch East Indies.)

I'd be very surprised if either the Russians or their sympathizers in the Ukraine allow access to anything significant, and they will try to blame the Ukraine govt. But the missile's path and a recorded conversation between an insurgent and a Russian major suggests that the Russians told the insurgents to fire the missile, which is of Russian make.

From what I've heard, this looks like a mistake; they didn't realize that it was a passenger plane. Some Russian may be going to a gulag in Siberia over this. Getting them to admit anything may be another matter.

As for personal effects, expect looting.

 

[george minze]

The plane got shot down by a SAM-really no need to do an investigation of the debris to determine the cause of the crash. I don't think we need to be over there. In fact why don't we sit back and let the rest of the world do our heavy lifting for a change??? The only connection we have is that a 19 year old born in America but living in the Netherlands since the age of 5 was on the flight. No reason to stick out nose in it unless we plan to actually do something about it-and we all know that ain't gonna happen..

Isn't that the truth....Putin could spit in our face and we wouldn't do anything. Our capabilities are being diminished as we speak...One surprise was the gal that was appointed to the UN.
she pretty much said it like it is...I am sure she will be admonished before sun down......She seems to have kahonies. what a novelty.

 

[feralmerril]

There well could be a angle of trying to get world opinion against the other side by one side shooting it down to make it look like the other side did it.
These people probley are at least a few steps above much of the third world yet it should go to show what can happen when sophisticated weapons are given to unsophisticated people. Isnt it strange that we dont trust our own people with a handgun but are willing to arm the rest of the world with missals, nukes, tanks, jets etc? We have laws against big gulps, seat belt and helmet laws but arming aboriginals is okay! It`s a mad, mad world!

 

[butchd]

There are a lot more than a rep from Boing and a rep from NTSB. There have already been conflicts with the Ukrainians in an attempt to get DNA samples. The one American victim also had a Dutch citizenship. I know the civilized part of Europe has the know-how to do what we can do. Maybe the Americans are getting minimum wage and a discount on air fair.

 

[CDROBERTS]

Can you explain why we are sending investigaters to the Ukraine? I think there was one victim who had a dual citizenship, one of which was U.S. I can't wrap my old mind around it.

So Russia can be blamed for the act. That's a no brainer.

Think "Weapons of Mass destruction" aka about 2001.

 

[loutent]

I understand that any U.S. team sent are not allowed to speak to anyone, take pictures, ask questions …oh wait, that's OUR border I'm thinking of ...

 

[vonn]

I don't trust a word our media puts out on this ! Way too much going on behind the scenes in that part of the world by all sorts of outside influences.

 

[scooter123]

We are there because no other country is willing to spend the time and funds that the US does as Standard Practice and as a result we have the best crash investigators on the planet. In addition we are there specifically for political reasons so we can prove that the Russian Separatists and their supporters (Russia) are responsible.

 

[rojodiablo]

Can you explain why we are sending investigaters to the Ukraine? I think there was one victim who had a dual citizenship, one of which was U.S. I can't wrap my old mind around it.

This is an easy answer:

Several countries have created various anti-aircraft missiles of varying levels of sophistication and size. Some are extremely compact, some are large truck mounted units.

We have a vested interest to try to find out if a small unit was used to down the airliner. Because, plain and simple..... we have had missiles/ rockets stolen from military bases here, and the range and capability of those is known to be able to reach that kind of target. What we need to know is, if it was not a stinger or javelin that was supplied by the US to say Iraq or Afghan gov't forces and then sold off to the highest bidder, then who has a small unit that basically matches us in range and capability.

If it was truly a truck based unit, we have a lot less to worry about. If it WAS a small shoulder fired unit....... we actually have a LOT to worry about. I remember having this particular talk with a DOJ friend about 12 years ago now. As we talked, the general consensus was that someday this kind of thing would be at our doorstep, and it would be very hard to eliminate.

With this in mind, we should, and will be trying to find out how, why and whom actually downed the aircraft. It doesn't mean we will go looking for them and bring them to any trial. But with all the planes we have in the sky, it is time and effort well spent to study this, for our own security here.

 

[feralmerril]

Remember General Schwarzkopf was having a briefing in the Iraq war and showed this guy doing about 85 mph. He had a rusted out old small car going wide open with his ears laid back over a bridge and it blew up about 40 yards behind him? Schwarzkopf smiled and said, "Can you imagine the view in his rear view mirror?"

 

[LostintheOzone]

Fact. The U.S. already knows exactly where the missile came from. They also know who said what before and after the missile was launched. If commercial aircraft were flying over the region so was U.S. aircraft gathering intel. There won't be any guessing about this because the U.S. has been monitoring this situation for months with satellites and aircraft.
The media will not have access to U.S. military intel and all of the talking heads will only know what the military decides to tell them which won't be much. The recovery of the black boxes and crash site investigation will have very little bearing on anything other than to show that Russia and the Russian supported separatists are not cooperating which is to be expected. I would be willing to bet that the U.S. even knows when those launchers were moved into the Ukraine and where they were when the missiles were launched. Not much could happen in a Euro war zone that the U. S. wouldn't know about.

Putin knows this. He is relying on the fact that the U.S. won't disclose what they know, which they probably won't anytime soon, and finger him as the bad guy. The U.S. will give him an opportunity to distance himself from the separatists and stop supporting them. My guess is that won't happen and stakes get a lot higher in a U.S./Euro/Russian poker game.

 

[BigBoy99]

How much are you willing to bet that when the Russians do the analysis of the "Black Boxes", the will find a.) that boxes were not working and there is no data on them all. b.) the data was "accidentally erased" when the tapes were being played back. c.) the boxes were so badly damaged, they didn't record anything. d.) any combination of the above or another method I didn't think of.

 

[arjay]

Just create enough pressure so that the powers that be finally decide that Vlad is no longer an asset.

 

[NYlakesider]

How much are you willing to bet that when the Russians do the analysis of the "Black Boxes", the will find a.) that boxes were not working and there is no data on them all. b.) the data was "accidentally erased" when the tapes were being played back. c.) the boxes were so badly damaged, they didn't record anything. d.) any combination of the above or another method I didn't think of.

Sounds more like something in our own IRS, but with a Russian translation.

 

[LVSteve]

How much are you willing to bet that when the Russians do the analysis of the "Black Boxes", the will find a.) that boxes were not working and there is no data on them all. b.) the data was "accidentally erased" when the tapes were being played back. c.) the boxes were so badly damaged, they didn't record anything. d.) any combination of the above or another method I didn't think of.

I think that black boxes full of data are not going to tell you anything we don't already know with 98% certainty.

The CVR will just have a big noise, maybe followed by the crew struggling for control or dying. The only thing it would show is if there was any "stay out of our airspace" chat on the radio. The FDR will have the plane flying along fat dumb and happy followed by all sorts of crazy readouts as the plane gets hit and goes down. It's not like the plane has a radar warning receiver that will start honking and the pilots attempt a 5g pull to evade the missile.

The only thing a forensic examination of the wreckage would reveal is what type and how many missiles hit the aircraft. That's why the separatists and their Russian backers will ensure it will never happen. Many SAM engagements are typically made with two missiles to up the kill probability. The Vincennes certainly launched two. The Ukrainian kill of an airliner over the Black Sea was done with only one missile, but it had a nearly 500 lb warhead.

 

[LostintheOzone]

The Vincennes certainly launched two. The Ukrainian kill of an airliner over the Black Sea was done with only one missile, but it had a nearly 500 lb warhead.

I remember that. It's not like it's never happened before. U.S. paid out a lot of money for that one and never did admit any wrong doing. Not much the Iranians could do about it anyway. Same deal here. Someone made a stupid mistake and people died. And as the OP stated, what are we doing there except maybe escalating the situation.

 

[STCM(SW)]

"The Vincennes certainly launched two. "

But there was no IFF from that plane......
And some of the bodies has life jackets on........

 

[LVSteve]

"The Vincennes certainly launched two. "

But there was no IFF from that plane......
And some of the bodies has life jackets on........

If you mean no military IFF, no surprise there. If you mean no civilian Mode 3/4, the Vincennes' own Aegis system was found to have recorded Mode 3 responses from the Airbus as had two other US ships which were ignoring it as a non-threat. I tend to agree with the assessment that the Vincennes crew got themselves into a Bedford Incident state of mind (see movie of that name) and would have launched on anything in those few minutes. Fog of war, and all that. As for bodies with life jackets, I cannot even find that in the conspiracy corners of the internet.

 

[cass]

It's odd that we can expend countless thousands of dollars sending people overseas for one dead American, yet won't do diddlysquat for one living Marine held hostage in our neighboring drug commune.

 

[rojodiablo]

It's odd that we can expend countless thousands of dollars sending people overseas for one dead American, yet won't do diddlysquat for one living Marine held hostage in our neighboring drug commune.

That Marine is not being held in Denver. He's in Mexico.