I prefer the old humpback too and have owned a Model 38 for years. As to the use of the single action mode I hit a deer many years ago and the only thing I had w/me was my M38. I was glad for the single action b/c it allowed me to make a surgical shot and put down the deer w/o have to get too close (it was thrashing around).
Why do people prefer a 642 to a 638?
- Thread starter rboineau
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walkin' trails
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Part of the debate over SA vs DA probably depends on one's generational era. My dad trained in LE with revolvers in the 60s, where SA and point shooting were still acceptable practices. He tends to scoff at the idea of a DA-only wheel gun. In the subsequent decades, techniques have evolved. As an instructor, I still have shooters who carry SA/DA semi autos. The poorer shooters, I've noticed, have a tendency to want to cock their pistols even at the most upclose and personal distances to the target during qualification courses (my agency used to allow the SA option when we still shot from the 50 yard line.). Obviously, this is a competency issue, but not having the option takes away at least one bad habit. I was originally trained on DA revolvers myself, have a number of traditional as well as DAO versions, and do not find the DAO a handicap.
I think a lot of it is the old story of pocket lint getting in the action and jamming up the action. That and the fact the the gun writers also tote a 642. I have both and really see the value of being able to cock the hammer when I want.
Humpbacks for me (own both the 638 and 649) for a few reasons.
- ability to monitor/control hammer during re-holstering.
- although most of my practice is shot DA, I like shooting SA to see how much I can improve upon my DA trigger control.
- as a hiker/backpacker, wild/rabid/feral/aggressive 4-legged creatures are my concern and might warrant a more deliberate SA shot at a distance.
- my gun club has some fun short barreled bullseye contests.
- I live in a safe area and am not allowed to carry in the more [2-legged] dangerous places I go (eg, NYC, traveling/exploring neighboring states), so my SD thoughts probably differ than most.
- if anything, these random mass shootings are what spook me, so I want my most accurate CCW on me, and that's a revolver shooting SA.
- ability to monitor/control hammer during re-holstering.
- although most of my practice is shot DA, I like shooting SA to see how much I can improve upon my DA trigger control.
- as a hiker/backpacker, wild/rabid/feral/aggressive 4-legged creatures are my concern and might warrant a more deliberate SA shot at a distance.
- my gun club has some fun short barreled bullseye contests.
- I live in a safe area and am not allowed to carry in the more [2-legged] dangerous places I go (eg, NYC, traveling/exploring neighboring states), so my SD thoughts probably differ than most.
- if anything, these random mass shootings are what spook me, so I want my most accurate CCW on me, and that's a revolver shooting SA.
-Better double action trigger
-enclosed action
-higher hand grasp and grip versatility
-no realistic need for SA in a close-quarter self-defense weapon.
-ECQ advantages: no exposed hammer to get entangled or blocked
Massad Ayoob: Hammer or
...
-enclosed action
-higher hand grasp and grip versatility
-no realistic need for SA in a close-quarter self-defense weapon.
-ECQ advantages: no exposed hammer to get entangled or blocked
Massad Ayoob: Hammer or
...
I have a 649 and the trigger is just wonderful. However, it has the older "skinny" sights that are great for deliberate precision shots, but my aging peepers just can't acquire them without dithering for a good while. Though I think it would be OK in the short term, it is also not rated for +P, and I really like the Speer Gold Dot for carry. While not specifically rated for +P, I think a pre-lock 638-2 or a 38-3 with the newer ".357" frame would be just about perfect for my carry needs, but those are pretty hard to come by at any reasonable price, and I don't need another "grail gun." So I carry a 642 and a 442. Though perhaps not my idea of perfect, they work just fine and are easily replaceable.
Finally, I think it's worth noting that a couple of years ago, a number of former LAPD 649 revolvers turned up on the police trade-in market. Oddly, these were all DAO. Why would the LAPD go through the extra expense and trouble of special ordering the 649 converted to DAO when they could have just ordered off-the-shelf 640 models? I have no way of knowing, but my guess is that they liked the hammer for the extra layer of safety during reholstering made possible by putting the thumb against the hammer, and the hammer also makes a rotation check for function possible (if you're down to your BUG, you really need it to go bang). And the DAO was for liability reasons. I guess they figured they get sued enough, so they took at least one complaint (spurious or not) off the table.
Finally, I think it's worth noting that a couple of years ago, a number of former LAPD 649 revolvers turned up on the police trade-in market. Oddly, these were all DAO. Why would the LAPD go through the extra expense and trouble of special ordering the 649 converted to DAO when they could have just ordered off-the-shelf 640 models? I have no way of knowing, but my guess is that they liked the hammer for the extra layer of safety during reholstering made possible by putting the thumb against the hammer, and the hammer also makes a rotation check for function possible (if you're down to your BUG, you really need it to go bang). And the DAO was for liability reasons. I guess they figured they get sued enough, so they took at least one complaint (spurious or not) off the table.
Sadly many of us aren't ex SEAL expert combat shooters, or even pretending to be on on the net. Several years ago a local fellow pulled his Walther ppk, cocked the hammer, then shot a bad guy in the head holding a lady captive with a gun. I'd say it was a much easier shot to make under stress than that long double action pull.
That's why I chose the M&P340.
Although I must admit I used Flitz and Ren wax on the whole gun, and now I have a three-tone: barrel shroud is dull grey to flat black, frame is a brighter flat black, and the ss cylinder looks like a pair of patent leather shoes.
As I've learned on this forum the key to being comfortable (and good) with a DOA is practice, practice, practice.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
I've pocket carried a Model 38 and 638 for years, and yes, the "slot" behind the hammer accumulates pocket lint, but I've never had any problems with the function or firing due to pocket lint. (Yes, I always use a holster when pocket carrying.)
I remember hearing of only one incident where a small make-up pencil in a lady's purse got wedged in the hammer "slot" and prevented functioning of the piece, but that is the only incident I'm aware of. I think the pocket lint jamming the action is an unfounded fear.
Regards,
Dave
ContinentalOp
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I think 2 or 3 years ago I saw a factory DAO 649 (.38 Special, can't remember the dash number) for sale. It was advertised as being a former LE gun, but the agency wasn't specified. I can't remember the asking price, but I do remember I couldn't afford it. That was the only time I'd seen a DAO 649, factory or otherwise, for sale.
sac-gunslinger
Member
One thing I have learned over the years of carrying guns, teaching people to shoot, and selling guns is that everybody likes something different. "Departments" are the only entities where "they" can all like the same thing (don't ask the individual officers).
If you have a weapon/ammo combination that you like but most others seem not to like, who cares. Carry/shoot what you like best, that gun will work best for you when you really need it.
If you have a weapon/ammo combination that you like but most others seem not to like, who cares. Carry/shoot what you like best, that gun will work best for you when you really need it.
Goodtime Charlie
Member
I had always heard that the argument against the hammer slot was that a "dime" could get wedged in it. I have never checked to see whether or not that is possible, but I like the cleaner line of the Centennial over the Bodyguard. It tells you by design (DAO) that it is for close-up business only, not for casual plinking single action now and again. Otherwise, just get a Model 36 Chief's Special, and put your thumb over the hammer so it won't snag as you draw it from the pocket. Possible or not, the opening is there, so the risk is there. The Centennial does away with the risk, making the gun inherently more reliable, and reliability is what is needed for a lifesaving tool. In addition, the Centennial can be fired from a pocket without clothing snagging the hammer, a possibility with the Bodyguard. I believe the Centennial to be a superior design for a self-defense gun, and self-defense is probably the use for 99.9999% of J-frames.
TeaDub
Member
I have a much longer history with the 640/642. Recently, I have become a lover of the 638. Why do we have to prefer one over the other? When a parent has a second child, the love for the first is not reduced.
Each gun type has similar function. Each has slight advantages and drawbacks. Since I can't seem to pick one over the other, I'll just keep both.
Each gun type has similar function. Each has slight advantages and drawbacks. Since I can't seem to pick one over the other, I'll just keep both.
sipowicz
Member
I heard about a guy who was in his bank during a hold-up and shot all five robbers with his 442. When they recovered the five guns from the robbers, they were all 638s. So for me, the decision was pretty easy.
I don't think you could go wrong with any J-Frame. I prefer the 442 for pocket carry. I used to carry Two of them until I got a mint 36. Now I carry the 36 AIWB and the 442 in my pocket. I think at the range taking my time I am almost as accurate with the DAO as the DA/SA gun. As for the 442 I liked the looks and I think the finish holds up better than what ever they coat the 642 with.
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Joni_Lynn
US Veteran
I shoot both pretty much equally well and can only come up with one reason why I just adopted a 642 instead of a Bodyguard. If you can cock the hammer back and then the need to fire resolves itself, I find the BG hard to decock as compared to say a model 60. I feel there is too much chance to let the hammer slip. I doubt the gun would go off if it slipped considering the hammer block should move into position if my finger is off the trigger. It still however is a concern.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
A dime will easily fit in the hammer slot. So will two dimes. So will five dimes. But they fall out as soon as the muzzle goes towards horizontal. By the way, since I was playing with change to see what fit the "coin slot", I found three quarters and a dime also fit the hammer slot, but again, they fall out as soon as the muzzle starts going towards horizontal. Could you wedge a dime into the slot? I guess so, if you really worked at it, but this supports what I was always taught - never put anything else in the pocket holding the revolver. Plus, to quote Colonel "Bat" Guano ("Dr. Strangelove"): "What, you don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do you?"
Regards,
Dave
Blackshirt
Member
I like J-Frames and own both a 638 and a 642. We have a farm and there are always varmints about. The 638 answers brilliantly against all unwelcome visitors. Carry options are great and I have the choice of either speed or accuracy. Also, my 638 has a really superb trigger; a great deal lighter and smoother than my Centennial. The 642 spends most of it's time in the safe...
I prefer the hammerless models. Started carrying 40/42 in 1969 and haven't stopped since tho I also have all the various Body Guard revolvers in my collection, but only use the hammerless as my everyday ccw. All are great little guns.
Dave, I'm gonna get in hot water for asking this, but I've been in Vegas now for 6+ years... What is a dime? Can't remember anymore.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
"My friend Grant Cunningham, master wheelgun-smith and author of the excellent Gun Digest Book of the Revolver, writes the following at his blog at www.grantcunningham.com: "… the Centennial models simply have better actions! The enclosed hammer Centennial models have slightly different sear geometry than do the exposed hammer models, which gives them a pull that is more even—more linear—than the models with hammer spurs. For the savvy shooter it's a noticeable difference, making the Centennial a bit easier to shoot well."
Grant continues, "The Centennials also have one less part than the other models: since they have no exposed hammer, they don't have (nor do they need) the hammer-block safety common to all other 'J' frames. That part, which is quite long and rides in a close-fitting slot machined into the sideplate, is difficult to make perfectly smooth. Even in the best-case scenario, it will always add just a bit of friction to the action. Not having the part to begin with gives the Centennial a 'leg up' in action feel. (In fact, at one point in time a common part of an 'action job' was to remove this safety, in the same way that some 'gunsmiths' would remove the firing-pin block on a Colt Series 80 auto pistol. Today we know better!) So, if your criterion is action quality, the choice is clear: the enclosed hammer Centennial series is your best bet!"
-Massad Ayoob
Grant continues, "The Centennials also have one less part than the other models: since they have no exposed hammer, they don't have (nor do they need) the hammer-block safety common to all other 'J' frames. That part, which is quite long and rides in a close-fitting slot machined into the sideplate, is difficult to make perfectly smooth. Even in the best-case scenario, it will always add just a bit of friction to the action. Not having the part to begin with gives the Centennial a 'leg up' in action feel. (In fact, at one point in time a common part of an 'action job' was to remove this safety, in the same way that some 'gunsmiths' would remove the firing-pin block on a Colt Series 80 auto pistol. Today we know better!) So, if your criterion is action quality, the choice is clear: the enclosed hammer Centennial series is your best bet!"
-Massad Ayoob
Arik
Member
Self defense! In those situations you will most likely not have time to cock the gun anyway. Meanwhile the exposed hammer can snag on clothing
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Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
EricR
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With all due respect to the love of my life (our 442 is her's) I did not want to "confuse" her with any options other than pulling the trigger. We've recently gone to the 442 after she initially carried a Walther CCP. Now she has no magazines, no slide, no magazine release, no safety, and no hammer. Just a trigger. This was my decision for her, having lived with her for 23 years.
Watchdog
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This is news to me. I must be out of the loop.
EricR
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Had I known this I wouldn't even have thought twice. Even gladder (is that a word?) I went with the 442.
Years ago during what we thought was an attempted break-in, my wife grabbed her model 60 and put her thumb on the hammer and asked if she should cock it. I calmly told her no. She asked a couple of more times if I was sure she shouldn't and I had to keep telling her not to do it. I had clearly told her never to do so in a self-defense situation many times before that and always had her train double-action only. I don't think she ever fired that gun single action even one single time, but for whatever reason she kept wanting to cock it. If she had been home alone, I'm pretty sure she would have pulled the hammer back.
Irregardless of someone's training, it's often hard to predict how an individual will react in a real life scenario, especially in a panic state or experiencing a fight/flight response. We promptly traded that model 60 in for a safe and simple DAO model 640.
EricR
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Then you should appreciate this Mister X. And this was one of my primary reasons for no-hammer. Barely a couple years into our marriage I was about to go on one of my infrequent business trips. So, we sat on the foot of our bed and I began some informal instructions with her using a 2.5" 686 loaded with snap caps. She "fondled" it as I attempted to explain SA versus DA. Then she hands the 686 back to me stating "here, it doesn't work". I told her she must be mistaken as it's a S&W. Well, somehow while squeezing the trigger and simultaneously cocking the hammer SHE FROZE UP THE REVOLVER!
The 686 went back in the safe and I armed her with a USGI M1 Carbine.
The 686 went back in the safe and I armed her with a USGI M1 Carbine.
Bill In Texas
Member
My two daily carries! The 637-2 is my BUG!
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