Why doesn't the new Colt King Cobra .22 have counterbored cylinders?

[BB57]

Nah, they just can't think outside the rim!

Joking aside: I'm no Colt expert, but could it be possible that it's just an oversight? When did Colt last make a rimfire revolver? Was it the Diamondback 35 years ago?

I doubt it’s an oversight. It’s just business.

If I recall, Remington saved $0.10 per rifle by not replacing a trigger with a known potential for accidental discharges in certain situations. They weighed the costs of making the change against projected lawsuits and insurance costs. It didn’t go well for them in the long run.

Colt is no doubt doing the same, figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin.

They are also probably betting that most shooters won’t recognize the omission for what it really is - a compromise in not just quality but also safety.

 

[BSA1]

Another reason why I no longer will buy Colt revolvers. They screwed me royally on a new out of spec SAA I brought. Basically told me it was a “collectable” and not for shooting.

Gun ‘riters need to eat so they promote poorly designed and made guns.

 

[Protocall_Design]

You would not need a longer firing pin. The case seats the same place either way. The difference is the material left on the cylinder up around the rim. The real cost saving (maybe 10 cents each) would be that every cylinder can then be almost 1/8" shorter. I agree, bad idea.

To Gypsum Jim - A counterbore is simply a flat bottom hole on top of another hole. I've done thousands of counterbores for socket head capscrews. A countersink is a tapered hole on top of another hole, often used for flat head screws.

 

[Pef]

I doubt it’s an oversight. It’s just business.

If I recall, Remington saved $0.10 per rifle by not replacing a trigger with a known potential for accidental discharges in certain situations. They weighed the costs of making the change against projected lawsuits and insurance costs. It didn’t go well for them in the long run.

Colt is no doubt doing the same, figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin.


They are also probably betting that most shooters won’t recognize the omission for what it really is - a compromise in not just quality but also safety.

That's one heck of an accusation. Do you have anything to base this on, e.g., access to their testing data, or are you just making it up?

 

[mag318]

My Colt King Cobra Target 22 functions just fine and it's a beautiful revolver.I too was surprised the the chambers were not counterbored and wonder if it was a cost cutting measure.The revolver has a very high quality feel to it and the polished finish is attractive. My first cylinder Double Action resulted in 3 light strikes firing CCI Standard velocity. But after the first cylinder DAO I had no more light strikes, go figure. I'm very happy with this new Colt and think they will sell a lot of them.

 

[GypsmJim]

To Gypsum Jim - A counterbore is simply a flat bottom hole on top of another hole. I've done thousands of counterbores for socket head capscrews. A countersink is a tapered hole on top of another hole, often used for flat head screws.

I think that's what I said. Maybe I didn't phrase it right. My description of the term was directed specifically at firearms.

 

[BB57]

That's one heck of an accusation. Do you have anything to base this on, e.g., access to their testing data, or are you just making it up?

Do your own research, it was heavily litigated. Start with Richard Barber the thousands of pages of internal documents he’s uncovered regarding Remington knowing about the defect and burying the concerns for decades.

—-

There’s an interesting difference between:

- criminal attorneys (and to a lesser extent government attorneys) who will lean toward giving a client the most conservative and safest possible interpretation and or advice; and
- business attorneys who will take a client’s preferred position and try to make it as defensible as possible.

When a company ends up in litigation over an accident, and start taking depositions, corporate attorneys will actually stop engineers and other subject matter experts employed by the company from going too far and actually stating what caused the accident. It’s all about money.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I've got no dog in this fight, but I would like to hear Colt's explanation.

Having used S&W Models (17 and 18) for almost 50 years, I feel comfortable with the recessed RF rims on those revolvers.

 

[pharmer]

I don't appreciate the firing pin hitting the bottom of the cartridge that sits on the extraction plate. "Added variables." Joe

 

[CalifEd]

When a company ends up in litigation over an accident, and start taking depositions, corporate attorneys will actually stop engineers and other subject matter experts employed by the company from going too far and actually stating what caused the accident. It’s all about money.

You're right.
Given the opportunity and time, and engineer tell you about your watch, how it works, how/why it is failing and how they could make it better.
Not what attorneys want to hear in a liability deposition.

 

[Mark8]

I don't appreciate the firing pin hitting the bottom of the cartridge that sits on the extraction plate. "Added variables." Joe

Good point, never thought of that.

 

[TheTinMan]

First off - many thanks to DS-10-SPEED for definitively answering the question. No - there is no protection for the shooter if a case head bursts, etc.

I don't appreciate the firing pin hitting the bottom of the cartridge that sits on the extraction plate. "Added variables." Joe

Hmmm… a potentially floating plate behind the rim the hammer is hitting. Couldn’t that cause light primer strikes? THAT could require an engineering change, although a personnel change removing the engineer who thought that was a good idea might be in order as well.

I was as excited as anyone when Colt announced the new production revolvers. I love my older Colts! I bought a King Cobra sight unseen in 2019. It was a real disappointment for me. The trigger reset was just “hinky” - can’t come up with a better word but it made Shooting the gun double action frustrating for me. Colt “customer service” told me “working as intended. I almost never unload firearms but that one went away in trade last year and I haven’t regretted it for a moment.

Chip

 

[JudgeColt]

I too am surprised that Colt did not recess the cartridge rims on this new design revolver. However, I note one significant difference in the design that I think is probably the explanation.

Note that the firing pin strikes the rim of the cartridge on the INNER edge of the rim, not on the outside edge as is most common. To me, that means that if a rim ruptures where the firing pin strikes, which I think is the only likely place for a rim rupture to occur, the fragments will be stopped by the raised center ratchet and, if any make it past that block with any velocity, the closely-aligned rims on the far side will catch those last fragments.

Why Colt did not just use a raised ring at the outer rear edge of the cylinder as it did with the Mark III, the Mark V and the original King Cobra centerfire revolvers, is a mystery. It would have been a good compromise at a small additional cost, even if rim ruptures on modern ammunition are extremely rare.

 

[Pef]

Do your own research, it was heavily litigated. Start with Richard Barber the thousands of pages of internal documents he’s uncovered regarding Remington knowing about the defect and burying the concerns for decades.
...

I know about Remington. I highlighted your quote, which I will repeat here:

Colt is no doubt doing the same, figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin.

So, I ask again. What proof do you have that Colt is "no doubt doing the same?" And what have you uncovered to support your claim that Colt (no doubt) is "figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin."

I'd really like to know.

 

[ralph7]

I never dry fire my rimfires, but I would like to know if this Colt in question will score the face of the chamber if dry fired because of no counterbore.

 

[BB57]

I know about Remington. I highlighted your quote, which I will repeat here:

Colt is no doubt doing the same, figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin.

So, I ask again. What proof do you have that Colt is "no doubt doing the same?" And what have you uncovered to support your claim that Colt (no doubt) is "figuring an eye here and there won’t cost as much as machining a recess in the cylinder and providing a longer firing pin."

I'd really like to know.

I don’t have an smoking gun that says it’s greed, rather than ignorance, but the end result is the same.

 

[Fishinfool]

I never dry fire my rimfires, but I would like to know if this Colt in question will score the face of the chamber if dry fired because of no counterbore.

Sounds like it will strike the edge of the extractor at the chamber opening?

Larry

 

[TheHobbyist]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Very curious that this was not addressed in any engineering changes, drafts, designs and so on...before market.

 

[CH4]

I have a $400 dollar Taurus 94 .22LR that has recessed cylinders.

It’s amazing that Colt would plan on selling a $1000 .22LR revolver without that rather important gas control feature.

That looks more like a moon clip cut than individually recessed chambers. The purpose of having each chamber recessed is to mitigate chain fires. If one rim blows, there’s a good chance it’ll light off its neighbors. The recessed chambers are meant to isolate the rims of each cartridge to keep such a thing from happening. Several manufacturers have eliminated the individually recessed chambers so they can squeeze in a couple extra rounds in a cylinder originally designed for fewer rounds. . My Smiths are all isolated. Easy to do when there are only 6 holes.

 

[ralph7]

That looks more like a moon clip cut than individually recessed chambers. The purpose of having each chamber recessed is to mitigate chain fires. If one rim blows, there’s a good chance it’ll light off its neighbors. The recessed chambers are meant to isolate the rims of each cartridge to keep such a thing from happening. Several manufacturers have eliminated the individually recessed chambers so they can squeeze in a couple extra rounds in a cylinder originally designed for fewer rounds. . My Smiths are all isolated. Easy to do when there are only 6 holes.

Do you have a link to this type of event in a rimfire?
Never heard of such a thing, but I'm certainly open.