WHY I COULD NEVER BUY A HIGH STANDARD .22 TARGET PISTOL :(

[chief38]

When I purchased my first handgun back in 1979 I actually went to the store with the intentions of purchasing a Hi Standard .22 Auto target Pistol - the Citation, Trophy, Supermatic or whichever exact model I liked best. I had heard only great things about them including how incredible the trigger was, how accurate they are, how well built they were and how easy the takedown for cleaning is.

So I get to the store and the manager brings out 3 different models which were all very similar. I handled them and immediately was turned off with two things that were very important to me. First and foremost was the fact that the slide release was on the right side of the gun - opposite 98% of the guns I ave ever handled. Since I am right handed it was quite awkward to me. The other thing that I did not like was the magazine release was on the bottom of the mag well and again, very awkward to me.

After the sales manager saw me unhappy with the controls he said I am getting a model that you will really like - and with that he brought out a S&W model 41 which I would up taking home and have 'till this day. I do love my M 41 and it has been trouble free and spot-on for 36 years but this evening I brought it to the Range for some .22 shooting and my buddy brought along his Hi Standard from the 1960's. After shooting 50 rounds through my M41 he said "wanna try mine"? I said SURE and loaded up his Hi Std. It shot perfectly, had an incredible trigger (felt like sub 2 lbs) and I shot it better than I have ever shot my M41! I actually would have posted the target but I chucked it - frustrated. 9 out of 10 shots were in the X ring at 50 feet and the group was under 3/4". I can honestly say I do not remember a group like that at 50 feet and 9X ring shots with the 10th in the 10 ring with my M41.

As incredible as it was, I still can not get over the backwards or awkward controls. If ONLY they had built it with controls I could like, I would run out and get one today! Nothing against my M41, but I just shot that Hi Std. like no other .22 pistol I have ever shot! WHY WHY WHY did they do that? If I ever ran into the designer I'd give him a piece of my mind! Anybody else here feel similar?

 

[Big Cholla]

I was on the UNR Rifle Team, but we also had a group of 5 ea. Colt Match Target Woodsman. So, we team members once a week had an informal pistol match using the Colts. I then went out and purchased a High Standard Supermatic Trophy and shot a few town league pistol matches with it and hunted a heck of a lot of Jack Rabbits too. I have never shot a M 41, so have no direct comparison there. I can say that IMHO, the Supermatic Trophy would outshoot any of the School's Colt Match Target Woodsmans. ...............

 

[chief38]

Big Cholla - after shooting one last night - I do not doubt you......

 

[jtcarm]

Never shot a 41. It's probably best I don't, then I'd have to go buy one.

I do love the Citation, though.

 

[chief38]

I do still think the world of my M41 but I outshot it with the H. Std. yesterday and the H. Std. did feel great in my hands - but the controls........

 

[glenwolde]

I always assumed that their popularity for Bullseye use was the reason. They were often fitted with those massive sculptured target grips. Having to work around a slide and a magazine release when making those grips would have been a pain.

For Bullseye use those two features are not necessary and if so equipped would just have made life more difficult when fitting grips.

One nice thing about the mag release is you can maintain your grip and change magazines with just your left hand. It's also very positive. You won't take an alibi because you accidentally dropped your mag. Ever.

 

[elpac3]

Mag release on the bottom is no big deal for a target pistol where you are not concerned with how long it takes to change you magazine.

Likewise, when I first started bullseye shooting back in the late 60's I was taught to release the slide by pulling the slide back. I believe the slide hold open was intended as just that, a slide hold open for after the last shot and not necessarily as a slide release, but again, not an big issue with a bullseye pistol.

Still have my HS Citation but the thing that sill drives me nuts is having to tune the magazine for different ammo brands these days.

 

[Texas Star]

My late father had a Hi-Std. Field King. I borrowed it once when I went to visit a friend while we on leave from the USAF. He lived near a wooded area where we hunted doves (with shotguns) in a field. I shot only a lizard with the .22. Gave a coral snake a pass, as it wasn't an urgent threat. I felt bad about the lizard in retrospect. I just wanted to see if I could hit it. The bullet flipped it several feet and I had to look hard to find the body. I have no idea what became of my dad's guns. His second wife probably sold them. He did give me a Winchester 77 a couple or three years before he died.

I fired both Hi-Standard and S&W M-41's in the USAF and think the M-41 shot best for me. May vary with the gun, the ammo, and the shooter. The M-41's had the 5.5 inch heavy barrel. Some Rugers had the 6 and 7/8th's inch bbl . and shot well

I had a couple of Colt Match Target Woodsman .22's. They shot well, but not as well as the Ruger with 5.5-inch bull barrel or the Hi-Std. and M-41.

 

[Decker]

For dedicated target pistols, ergonomics is probably not as important a consideration as is it's intended purpose; putting a hole in the middle of a piece of paper.
I don't think any of the .22 target pistols have such great ergonomics if you are going to use them for anything else but bullseye shooting.
I for one wouldn't want to carry a chambered model 41 hunting, for example.

To the point of the OP, I've got 'em all, a HS Trophy and HS Victor both made in the 70's (I bought one new and one as-new but from the original owner), and I bought a brand new Model 41 w/5" bull barrel in the late 70's as well.
I find that they are all on par with each other for accuracy, but I prefer the "shooting feel" of the Victor best on which I have installed an LSP Match Barrel (alum sleeved) so that I could mount a red dot on it without modding the original barrel.

My only "complaint" is with the HS Trophy (I can't really call it a complaint, just a point of interest) is that I have to grab the slide underneath the overhang of the sight ramp instead of just putting my hand on top and cycling which is easier with the Victor.

The 41 is special, though. It does have a different feel than the HS's, not better, just different, and I do like the original grips on it because unlike most other pistols that you "hold", or "grip", I feel more like I'm "wearing" the Model 41 when shooting it. That's just a personal observation, not a rating.
Getting older, I have been putting red dots on more and more of my target pistols, and the 41 is not different. Like the Victor, I didn't want to modify the original slide to install a red dot, so I bought a new S&W slide that was made more recently so it came with the holes for a sight pre-drilled unlike my original that had no such provision.

I am glad to hear people who don't like the old High Standards, though. That leaves more for the rest of us.

 

[H Richard]

Back in the early 80's I had to have a Mod 41, and when one finally showed up at my LGS, I traded my K22 off towards it. I did O.K. with it and read a lot about the H.S. My LGS got in a slightly used H.S Victor and I fell in love with it. I talked my LGS into letting me take it and my 41 out for a side by side test. I wound up trading my 41 for the Victor. Over the next 35 years, I have owned 3 Mod 41's, but they always get sold or traded off, but I am still shooting that H.S. Victor.

 

[MarkL_01]

I have a Victor that I bought in 1979 or so from the original owner. I mostly used it in IHMSA .22 matches. I liked that the grip is very similar to that of a 1911.

It's become unreliable in feeding a round from the magazine, and I bought new springs for it. After seeing what was involved in changing them, I started looking for a gunsmith. Most don't seem to know much about them.

I found a retired 'smith who knows them from working on them when he was in the Army. He said that they're not only tricky to take apart and re-assemble, but you have to remove and replace pins in a particular order. Now if I can just get in touch with him on a day when he feels like working....

 

[47knuckle]

I have a Supermatic Trophy, an old S-101 Supermatic with the barrel ports, and a M41. Usually, but not always, the High Standards turn out a smaller group than the M41. None of them are going anywhere, they'll all too fun to shoot.

 

[PALADIN85020]

When I was in the service, I shot on an Army pistol team with an arms-room-issued Ruger MkI - it had no hold-open device at all. I envied those who could afford the Hi-Std. "space guns."

In later years, I acquired a couple of them, and found them superb. The slide release on the right and the mag release on the bottom was of no consequence on a purely target gun. The main thing is that both of these were extremely accurate. Interestingly, the shorter-barreled 6.75" job with the rear sight on the slide has a longer sight radius than the 8" with the rear sight mounted on the barrel. It was preferred by those in the know for this reason.

Here's the way they were shipped from the factory - I lucked into this "kit" when I bought the first one.

I then purchased a Model 41 - a great target arm with all the bells and whistles and the controls in the "proper" places. Still, I could not see that it gave me an edge over the Hi-Standards. It could also be somewhat finicky about ammo as far as functioning was concerned. The space guns would digest about anything. With both brands of course, it's always good to test out various rounds for best accuracy in a particular gun.

It's rare that you will see a space gun up for sale - their owners tend to hang on to them because they are the next best thing to lasers for tearing up an x-ring.

John

 

[hkcavalier]

A Hi-Standard was the first handgun I ever shot. The factory hair trigger was extremely light. Never noticed the ergonomic deficiencies.

 

[Lou_NC]

Interesting to hear the comments on the slide stop (release) and magazine release locations.

I had the opportunity to choose between a High Standard Trophy or S&W Mod 41 from a small stocking FFL when I first got into Bullseye shooting in the early 80's. I actually preferred the High Standard!

As far as the slide stop being on the "wrong side", in 30+ years of shooting I've never released a semi-auto slide with my thumb, I've always pulled back on the slide and released it that way. That's also how I teach students in my NRA Pistol classes. One advantage of that technique is that you never need to "find" the slide stop on different brand semi-auto's, they all have a way to grab the slide!

As far as the magazine release location, I never found it a bother since my hand was always under the magazine to catch it when being released anyway.

Now, if I was playing "run and gun" shooting games where loading/unloading was done on the clock, I might find the above features sub-optimal. But certainly not for NRA Bullseye shooting.

Just goes to show you............different strokes...........

Lou

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I have a model 46 and a High Standard HDM.
I prefer the grip angle of the HS.
The 46 had a better trigger.
Both of them are more accurate than me.

 

[NYlakesider]

I had the poor mans target .22 it was the Sharpshooter. Gun at best was considered semi target!

I used that in many 50' indoor matches back in the early 70s when I first got my state authorization to be able to own a hand gun. Gun shot well, much better than many guns much more in price, that includes other "better" Hi Standards! Control locations were not a problem, never gave it a thought

Gun tought me a lot and I went into 3gun for a while till I just plain got bored shooting that course of fire. Went into the much more exiting PPC and since then have hardly fired the Sharpshooter. At the rate that my safe is filling up might have to do some releases. If I do best bet that gun will go up for sale.

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

I collect S&W 41s (and 46s, 41-1s and 52s). Have a few HS Victors (basically Hamden). For shooting, like many here, I prefer the 5.5" Victor over the 5.5" 41. Primarily the grip angle. Both have good triggers and well above my accuracy potential. Both balance well and have excellent sights. With reasonable maintenance and good ammo (CCI std. vel.), both are highly reliable.

 

[dave1918a2]

I have a Victor that I bought in 1979 or so from the original owner. I mostly used it in IHMSA .22 matches. I liked that the grip is very similar to that of a 1911.

It's become unreliable in feeding a round from the magazine, and I bought new springs for it. After seeing what was involved in changing them, I started looking for a gunsmith. Most don't seem to know much about them.

I found a retired 'smith who knows them from working on them when he was in the Army. He said that they're not only tricky to take apart and re-assemble, but you have to remove and replace pins in a particular order. Now if I can just get in touch with him on a day when he feels like working....

Hi standard magazines do deform at the lips. You can reform them Yourself. Rear lips ID is .185 and front lips ID is .230. Quite simple to do.

 

[bigmoose]

I have both right and left hand stocks and also the shorter bull barrel. This is the same model that I shot while on the pistol team in college thirty years ago. An absolutely wonderful gun to hold and shoot. I think it is hard to beat a High Standard Supermatic Citation.