Why misnumbered stocks?

[Recoil Rob]

I can understand older guns occasionally having the wrong numbered stock on them but it seems to me that a lot of high condition guns have stocks numbered to another gun. You would think that someone that bought a gun 50 years ago and took the trouble to keep the gun in high condition would have kept the correct stocks. Even if they were a target shooter and used aftermarket target stocks the originals would have been kept in the box.

But it seems that an inordinate amount of nice guns have the wrong stocks. Right now on one of the auctions there's a very nice K-38 from 1954, high condition, original box and sales receipt, wrong stocks. I myself have purchased a few guns at discount because even though they were 95%+ guns, they had the wrong stocks.

Just curious as to why so many go missing, it's as if guys went to gun clubs to shoot and before a match threw all their stocks in a bin and then took home whatever came out. Most high condition guns look as though a screw was never turned so I doubt the stock got exchanged at a gunsmiths.

What do you think?

BTW, what about a sticky thread listing mismatched stocks and extras we have to try and reunite them with the correct gun?

 

[TSQUARED]

Years ago target shooters did not pay much attention to the orignal factory stocks. My first target revolvers in the 1950's were purchased new and the factory stocks were replaced with, I believe, Herret's target stocks with a thumbrest. Being a pack rat I saved the original stocks. In those dfays purchasing a gun with the Herret's target stocks would have brought more cash than with the original magna stocks.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Two things. These were not collectable guns when new and owners swapped out grips to suit themselves and either missplaced them or sold em and not being collectors did not reunite the proper grip to the proper gun, if it fit it was good. Then you have the gun strippers who can make more money selling off desireable grips seperately from the gun.

 

[RdrBill]

Sir.
The high condition guns for sale were used by the first owner who did as he pleased to use the gun as a tool. He may have changed stocks to some that fit his use. At some point the gun is sold and the gun collector or dealer who bought it realizes it is in great condition and if it just had the correct stocks or period correct stocks it would be worth a lot more.
What you are seeing is guns that have been embellished to make a bigger profit. They are attempting to make the gun more original or better than when they got it. You know that the dealers selling these fine guns are not the original owners, don't you??
Bill@Yuma

 

[Recoil Rob]

You know that the dealers selling these fine guns are not the original owners, don't you??
Bill@Yuma

Yes Bill, I know that. Still, I have a friend that has been collecting for 40 years and even back then he was getting guns with misnumbered stocks.

Back in the day, if you ought a set of Herrett's did you trade in your old stocks? I recently bought a 1957 K-22, high condition gun, it came with some nice target Herretts and two sets of magna's, both older than the gun. Just curious.

 

[Tired Gunsmith]

We owned and operated several Police Equipment and Gunshops through the years.
It was quite common when someone purchased a new pair of grips for their gun, they just left the originals at the shop.
We always offered the customer his originals and suggested that they be kept, but more than 50% declined the offer.
When S&W 'police' type guns came in , ( I, J, K, N) as well as the Colt D & E revolvers that neede cleaning up, we utilized the left overs.
Sure wish I had kept some, seeing what they bring now.

 

[rburg]

Those posting here seem to be making some kind of statement as to fault. For whatever reason, it seems to be in style to blame the seller or the grip swapper for some improper activity. If they bought the gun, its theirs to separate as they please. Say I bought a nice 38/44 HD in its nice blue box, and the gun came with prewar Magna grips in perfect condition. I tried to sell it for, say, $2000. But no one would pay the stiff rate. So I ebay the grips for $600, the box for another $600, and slap on a set of 1937 Contract service stocks. I can sell the gun for $1000, easy. So where I can't sell the package for $2000, I can separate it into pieces and quickly yield $2200.

The fault is with the cheap buyers who won't pay up to take it home as a unit, not with me for the crime of splitting things. Yes, the parts are worth more than the whole. There is only one way you can cure the problem, pay the price.

 

[RdrBill]

The fault is with the cheap buyers who won't pay up to take it home as a unit, not with me for the crime of splitting things. Yes, the parts are worth more than the whole. There is only one way you can cure the problem, pay the price.

Sir.
I respectfully disagree. You are pointing fingers just about like I was. It is a supply and demand market. There is a resonable supply of guns and limited fluid cash to support the demand.
When Ford could not sell their new trucks, they did not part them out to junkyards, they lowered the price.
A lot of sellers are speculators and are hoping for a positive market. Maybe they have bought high and the market has slumped. They are now stuck with an over priced item. They have the option to lower the price to what the market will bear. In this day and age, the buyers with cash rule the market, always have. Sellers have the option to stay home, eat the gun, or sell the gun to the man with cash. They also have the option to ruin the gun.
Buyer and seller can both go to next show and try again. I think in time the guy with the money will win. The average guns cannot continue to go up in price just because it got sold to another dealer. A dollar is still worth a dollar even though it pass thru commerce 7 times. A gun that has seen 7 dealers has inflated terribly.
IMHO
Bill@Yuma

 

[rburg]

I see it differently. If owners of current Fords need parts, they'll buy them. If Ford can part the assembled trucks out and recover more from the part than from the finished unit, they should be parting them instead of building more that won't sell.

Here, we don't have the option of production. We have a very limited number of top quality guns with boxes.

We don't have control of the market. All we have is our own skinny billfolds. There are boxes I'd love to have. If I see one for sale, I'm buying it if its anywhere near reasonable. The same for hard to locate grips. It really doesn't matter to me if the seller has the gun under the table, or even on it. If I can' find a box for a 1940 nickel 44 target, I'm buying it. I lack the virtue to resist the box nor do I get involved in the great moral implications of its prior life.

Similarly, if I need a starter for my pickup truck, I really don't care if the seller took it off his truck or got it out of a junk yard. If it works, and I need it, I'll buy it.

Long ago Consumer Reports did a little study on car parts. They discovered that buying a car over the counter in the parts department cost multiples. Even with standard commercial discounts, a then Chevy Nova with a sticker price of $4000 would cost over $14,000 as parts.

I like boxed guns more than most people. I sometimes think I'm moving mountains to find boxes I need. My K22 collection might be a good example. But I'm realistic.

 

[austintexas]

I picked up a really nice 6 inch M&P in 32-20 in 1968. It had been a police officers revolver in Chicago and he said he couldn't find ammo for it so I traded him a .22 pistol for it. The gun had plastic grips on it and he didn't remember where the orginals were. That was over 40 years ago. Orginal grips were not that important back then. If you could see into the future things would be different. If I could have seen the future I wouldn't have sold my 59 corvette for $1300.00 in 1968.

SWCA 892

 

[dant]

all very good points above, and a bit varied,BUT bottom line is the first thing to "go" is usually the box, and the next is the grips,nature of beast of gun ownership, NOT 'collecting", BUT folks who go out and buy a gun for what ever reason, plinking, home defense, duty (work) whatever, YES< the "investor buyer", has and will keep in mind, retain the entire package, and maintain it, put it away for the future, BUT the vast majority buy it for " use" and they buy a holster, (throw away the box) put on a scope or target grips, it NO longer fits in the box, they throw away the box, trade or swap the grips for those that properly "fit"
and the originals gets traded,swapped ,sold misplaced or just plain lost and forgotten ( or got tossed in the divorce....)YIKES
been there , seen that, was finding boxes in the trash at the armory gun shows back in the late 50's and early 60's BEFORE "boxes" became 'fashionable' ( they didn't call me the 'king of carboard' for NO reason), LONG before some of you even "thought" about "keeping the boxes"........wish I had a nickel for every box and pair of grips I sold, or gave away, I'd be RICH, and yes, many,many pairs of grips, always was a hobby, not a business, though we have owned , and operated 3 different gun shops over the past 38 years ...............then came the internet, e-bay.;..the rest is history......and time
(we won't even get into the idiosyncrasies (mind sets?) of what looks NICE on ones' own gun........) as often said, "if only they could talk..."
the stories and history they could tell us...

 

[Jolly Bill]

Is it possible that S&W may have occasionally shipped a gun with grips not numbered to the gun?

I have a K22 with SN K1322X that has grips numbered "10851" but fit perfectly. I purchased this gun from an older gentleman who said he purchased it new on January 20, 1948 from a very small gunshop in upstate NY (Castile). He gave me the original store receipt when I bought the gun. He paid $65.00 for it back in '48. He did not have the box for the gun. Darn!

So did S&W occasionally let guns go with un-matched grips?

Jolly

 

[NFrameFred]

Back before we all became so 'educated' about what to keep and what to throw away, we actually bought a gun with the express intention of using it. If you bought a K frame magnum with checkered magna grips and took it out for it's inaugural baptism and fired a few cylinder loads of factory 357's through it, unless you were by yourself some kind soul at the range would patiently explain that after the hide grew back on your hand you might want to purchase a set of Pachmayrs for your implement.

Boxes ? And even more so, papers and all the junk they packed with a new gun ? Took up more space that you knew what to do with unless you only owned the one or two items. If they were "saved" they mostly got trashed from being shoved in a drawer or cabinet with other detritus that came and went. Or if you kept your gun oiled, the box and papers would get soaked and ruined if you stored them with the gun, so THAT wouldn't work. Storing empty boxes and grips that were never used because they hurt your hand didn't make sense at the time; folks who "collected" guns and kept all that stuff were more the exception than the rule.

"Clutter tends to expand to fill the space available for it's retention"

The above maxim is demonstrably true and as you accumulated more "junk" as the years progressed it sometimes made less sense to hang onto unused boxes and grips.

Now we be edumacated . . . we knows better . . . and we sell Dick Burg any old boxes we find in the cabinet

 

[wheelgun28]

My lgs has been in business for 50 yeas or more. I spoke to the owner about this one day not long ago. Many folks would indeed not take the original grips, they would swap on aftermarkets and the owner didnt want the factory ones. Many didnt want the box either, it was oh can you throw that out for me.

It still happens today, someone bought an expensive rifle, brought a pelican case from home and told the store to throw away the box...

I always look close at old boxes of after market grips. Often the owner would swap them and put the factory ones in that box. So you think its just some old non factory grips and inside is a mint pair of factorys. My friend just did this with 1911 grips in a Houge package. Mint Colt grips for $5.00

 

[DHENRY]

Dick,
You're 100% correct.
Call it sad, call it reckless, whatever...
The money talks, and the inherent cheapness of so-called 'bargain hunters' is what has created the pieces-parts selling mentality.
The entire gun-grips-tools-box-papers package is only original once, and serious collectors will pay the price.
Don

 

[JSR III]

Recoil Rob,

You raise a very interesting and valid observation. I have made this same claim many times myself. It definitely seems that one finds more high condition older Smiths with stocks not numbered to the gun. As far as your inquiry about S&W shipping out guns with wrong stocks, I will say this. In the "old" days, the stocks were serialized to the gun because the stocks were hand fitted to that particular numbered frame.

I have never been in manufacturing, but I have wondered on numerous occasions why this was necessary. Assumedly, all of the frames were manufactured to fairly close tolerances, so all stocks should fit any frame. This however, was not the case and frames and their hand fitted stocks were numbered to get them back together during final assembly.

Is it possible that a final assembler misread a number, they are rather small, and put stocks S 123456 on frame S 128456, I would think so. Did the final assembler just randomly put whatever stocks on whatever frame, I think not. This would have been a waste of all that hand fitting.

Since there are so many older Smiths with incorrect numbered stocks, I have to believe that it was just not that important to the gun owning and using community as it is to the collecting community that exists now. Boxes, as another example, were merely the medium used by the company to get the gun to the store. Most purchasers were only interested in the gun and usually purchased a nice new leather holster to carry it home in. The box was just considered junk cardboard. I have a friend that says S&W threw old blue boxes away by the dumpster full. The old parts and cardboard that are underground at the Springfield, MA land fill would make most collectors sick today.

As far as matching all of the old stocks that many of us have bags, drawers or boxes full of, I have suggested that we start a S&W Stock Exchange here on the forum. Not so much as a method of selling off the old wood, but rather a way of trying to match up numberd stocks with the original gun. Stock exchanges would be made by trading your non matching stocks for ones numbered to your gun or perhaps ones closely numbered to your gun. The only problem that I see is how to handle the trade of stocks in different condition. This might require some cash plus type of arrangement. All in all, I think that it would be a great idea.

 

[Recoil Rob]

James, I think the way the Stock Exchange could run is members would put up the stocks they have in a certain format. I suggest stock+serial number as in stock666666. Members with gun missing stocks would put up gun6666666. These would be long enough for the search engine to recognize. If I have stocks 666666 I would do a search for gun666666 and vice versa. The thread should be a sticky and only for stock exchange. If a gun owner finds that someone has the stocks for his gun he can send a photo of the gun's serial number for proof.

If a pair gets matched up I would suggest the "buyer" send the "seller" stocks of equal or greater condition. I would hope someone with extra stocks would not hold a pair hostage to someone needing them for a gun.

 

[firearmsunlimited]

Quite simply, boxes have always been packaging. The greatest majority of people do not retain boxes when the purchase something that will be used rather than collected. It doesn't see like so long ago that gun collectors started to make much ado about boxes, paperwork and cleaning rods, brushes, bore mops and SATs. I can remember back in '88 when my mother was cleaning out her attic she asked it I wanted to keep the John Deere toys that I had when I was a kid. Of course I said "yes." She then asked if I wanted the individual boxes as most of them were kind of beat up, etc. I said "no" and that I really did not know why we still even had them. Well when I finally sold the toys to a collector I told him that I had just recently pitched the old boxes because they were not in great shape. He told me that was too bad because the boxes were worth about $700.00. It was a painful lesson about retaining boxes. The point is, we as S&W collectors are not in the boat alone but many of us seem to be more obsessed with the peripheral accoutrements than collectors of other things. As it relates to stocks, on very rare occasion were S&W target stocks numbered to the gun. As others have pointed out, many shooters found that the magna style stocks were not very comfortable so they were taken off and ended up hither and yon never to be reunited with the gun that they were originally attached to. So now we collectors are often faced with accepting the fact that we may have a gun for which we will never have matching numbered stocks and often must search for a period correct box that is probably being sold at some highly inflated price. Like it or not, it's a simple story and a fact of life in our collecting field of choice.

 

[CT Smith Fan]

I bought a pre 29 in 99% condition from a local fellow who was the original owner,when I asked about the box he said that the satin lining ripped,so he removed the tools and tossed it in the trash.In 1957 it just didn't matter. How things have changed!

 

[Nightowl]

I keep stocks and boxes of guns I buy that come that way and for some unknown reason, always have. But, if I buy a gun by itself without box and tools, whatever, I just don't have any interest in putting in an orphan box. I have the gun for the gun's sake, to use it as is. For me, the non matching box has no value at all.

 

[Muley Gil]

Years ago, I found that the two piece S&W boxes were great for sorting brass while reloading.

 

[DBWesson]

Group:
It is interesting to know that there is still a golden rule.
The man with the gold rules.
E-Bay boxes are not cheep, that tells me that there is some money stashed out there kept in reserve for just that special box.
With 70,000 + members in this S&W forum I would think that we could set up a stock exchange, sure it would be complicated but with the expertise of the administrators of this forum I think it can be done.
Someone wanted to set up a stock exchange for the Number Three Russians that went to Australia. I don't know how hard it would have been to match up the gun with the stock when they came in from OZ, but the guy that brought them in didn't bother. Now when you find a
set "Gun with Stock" they do not match.
I am guilty of separating stocks from the gun.
I bought a 29-2 $450 with Coke Grips on it and since I only collect 5 screw guns, I did not care about that gun. I thought that the Cokes were too good for that gun anyway. They sold on E-Bay for $???.
DBWesson
Life NRA
Life CCA
Life CRPA
Life Sharps CA
Member S&WCA

 

[Hondo44]

Is it possible that S&W may have occasionally shipped a gun with grips not numbered to the gun?

I have a K22 with SN K1322X that has grips numbered "10851" but fit perfectly. I purchased this gun from an older gentleman who said he purchased it new on January 20, 1948 from a very small gunshop in upstate NY (Castile). He gave me the original store receipt when I bought the gun. He paid $65.00 for it back in '48. He did not have the box for the gun. Darn!

So did S&W occasionally let guns go with un-matched grips?

Jolly

I believe the cumulative opinion is yes, quite possibly, but usually when the numbers are only a few digits off. For example: 10563 and 10565 appearing to be an obvious assembler reading error, or 148234 and 148239 when an assembler made an error who was assumedly working on guns numbered close in the serial range and the provenance is a single owner gun, original in every other way.

Another scenario I've witnessed at a gunshop is the buyer bought a new 4"gun but liked the grain on the grips of a same model 6" gun sitting next to it in the showcase. The clerk swapped the grips for the buyer.

 

[Jack Flash]

One thing that no one has mentioned so far is guns used by an agency or police department that probably had an armoror. Do you think he cleaned guns one at a time? Or is it more likely he took the stocks off multiple guns, did whatever cleaning/tuning/repairing they needed and then put the stocks back on without even looking at the numbers?

I agree with the comment about Stock # 123456 being on gun # 128456, as I have a Model 10-6 where that is exactly the case. A deeply struck "3" can look a lot like an "8", especially if someone is too vain to put his glasses on, or happens to be swapping war stories as he works. There's no way of knowing whether this happened at S&W or at an agency, although some people seem to "know" beyond any doubt that it happened at right there at the factory.

It cracks me up how collectors wring their hands that someone 100 years ago bought a gun and had the audacity to actually use it.

Get a grip, guys!

 

[thedane]

The first gun I bought was a S&W 48-4. One of the first things I did was to buy target grips to replace the magna grips. I saved the original grips, but a lot of people didn't. I remember going into a local gun store and the owner had a box full of magnas. I wanted to sell the magnas I had and he said "Oh, you want to sell the grips that nobody wants?" So, I kept them.

Years ago, I sold a Colt ACE on consignment. I sold it without the box. 20-30 years ago, I don't think boxes were all that important. Later, I found the box and sold it on Ebay for $165.00. I threw away my first Python box as well as my first Gold Cup box.

Now, I don't throw away anything.

 

[Hondo44]

The first gun I bought was a S&W 48-4. One of the first things I did was to buy target grips to replace the magna grips. I saved the original grips, but a lot of people didn't. I remember going into a local gun store and the owner had a box full of magnas. I wanted to sell the magnas I had and he said "Oh, you want to sell the grips that nobody wants?" So, I kept them.

Years ago, I sold a Colt ACE on consignment. I sold it without the box. 20-30 years ago, I don't think boxes were all that important. Later, I found the box and sold it on Ebay for $165.00. I threw away my first Python box as well as my first Gold Cup box.

Now, I don't throw away anything.

Last Colt Ace box from 1932 I saw sell on e-bay went for $1200...2 years ago.

 

[Frank237]

I prefer ANY pistols or revolvers to have the original box...but have bought plenty without the box. I have yet to buy any on e bay either.

Guess I collect guns...not boxes. The other thing that enters my mind is that the collection will probably never get sold until I'm nearly dead or actually planted. What will I care if I'm missing some boxes then?

The passion to find the matching box or to have an appropriate box for a gun reminds me a bit of the collector car hobby twenty or so years back. I knew so many guys with GREAT old muscle cars, yet they felt somewhat like the bastard stepchild at our car shows as their car was not "All matching numbers".

The "factory original" and "all matching" was taken to such a ridiculous level that many left the hobby or sold out in search of that elusive matching car.

FN in MT

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Stocks, Collectors & Shooters

As others have mentioned, it was common to walk into nearly any gunshop once upon a time and find a box, or boxes, of factory service grips. S&W, Colt and others. But in my experience mostly S&W Magnas. When rubber grips became mainstream, it seemed the boxes of Magnas got larger too. Happily, I can tell you that I managed several times to harvest very desireable pre war service style stocks for a variety of revolvers from those boxes. There were 4 or 5 shops I frequented and the first thing I normally did was check out the "used" grips.

Collectors of course would not discard grips original to the gun, or perhaps even mismatched but correct period grips. Shooters, generally speaking, want stocks that are comfortable and may provide for better shooting or reduce felt recoil, or both. Cops usually look for the same qualities as a shooter but may emphasize durability the rubber stocks provide. I can say that I have damaged Magnas in scuffles or from banging into objects, the rubber stocks really do resist impact damage very well, as ugly as they are to me as a collector, I have to admit they do also protect the weapon to some extent.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[LEO918]

Have you ever bought a horse and saddle for the saddle? Just last week I was in a local pawn shop and there was an old beat up post war M&P. The gun had a 4" pre-war barrel on it and a perfect set of diamond target stocks. Needless to say I bought the gun. I think I got a set of stocks that came with a free gun!!