Why the fussing about action hold open

[Rpg]

I routinely see threads here that complain that the mechanism to hold the slide open won’t or no longer will.

Whenever I see such threads I always muse about why they want the hold open feature at all!

I was taught that you never shoot your gun dry. You always count your rounds. You always reload with at least one round chambered and one in the magazine you’re removing from the gun. I always use this procedure.

Since I don’t use the hold open I’m not even sure that the slide stop on my 1911’s works. I don’t care since I don’t use it.

A lot of folks here seem to value this feature.

Why?

 

[Headjar]

After being deployed for 4 and 1/2 years and being in a more than a few gunfights I can honestly say my mind was not on counting my rounds being fired.
The bolt or slide stop locking to the rear dang sure speeds up getting reloaded and back in the fight.
The was the point of the design to begin with. Or that's how the Marines trained us years ago.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, not shooting your gun dry sounds great in theory, in actual usage....years ago when bolt action repeaters became standard military issue they found a soldier under stress would continue to work the action unless there was something to physically remind him that his rifle was empty.

 

[Marshal Tom]

I was also trained in not shooting your gun dry. I carried a 1911 for probably 25 of my 36yrs in LE. I constantly checked my supply of ammo when qualifying so as not to run out in the middle of a string of fire. I would still prefer to not run dry but I train for slide lock reloads in case I do. One should also not do a combat reload if there are still rounds left in the magazine but should instead retain the mag with any leftover ammo should the need for it arise.

 

[OKFC05]

Go shoot any action pistol competition and you will get a quick lesson in how much failure to lock open on empty slows you down.
Of course, if you only shoot at your leisure with no stress (real or simulated) or time constraints, it is irrelevant.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

I see a lot of discussion about LRBHO on dedicated AR .22s. To get this AR .22 feature is an expensive proposition. The Black Dog mags that I use only catch the bolt on the magazine follower which works fine imo. I use my rifle monthly in 2 gun shoots. A fun gun.

 

[Inusuit]

Counting rounds is a fine theory. I suspect that in a gunfight, I might not do so. I shoot to slide lock regularly in practice so I will recognize an empty gun if I ever run it dry in combat.

 

[Rpg]

Go shoot any action pistol competition and you will get a quick lesson in how much failure to lock open on empty slows you down.
Of course, if you only shoot at your leisure with no stress (real or simulated) or time constraints, it is irrelevant.

I participate in some IPSC competition.

I was trained by Jeff Cooper back in 1980 and refreshed with him every few years until his death. My practice of not shooting the gun dry, leaving a round in the chamber and one in the magazine comes from that instruction, as does my practice of counting rounds and dropping the used magazine to the ground. Pick up your magazines when your time at the station is over.

A good deal of my shooting time is devoted to timed, competitive handgun shooting.

 

[toddcfii]

Jeff Cooper was an excellent source of gun fighting know how. But is not the only source. In theory never running a gun dry is what all law enforcement and modern gun instructors teach if possible. The reasons are obvious. But as far as I know pretty much all modern handgun fighting courses do teach how to run a gun dry and insert a magazine and get back in the fight. To my knowledge they teach this because the statistics have shown that pretty much everyone forgets how many rounds they have left in the gun and runs the gun until empty in a gunfight. As an aside they “all” teach how to do a tactical magazine change also - when behind cover - swapping out the magazine in the gun you have been shooting with a fresh magazine. If you have other statistics please share! I am open to learning.

 

[raygixxer89]

After being deployed for 4 and 1/2 years and being in a more than a few gunfights I can honestly say my mind was not on counting my rounds being fired.
The bolt or slide stop locking to the rear dang sure speeds up getting reloaded and back in the fight.
The was the point of the design to begin with. Or that's how the Marines trained us years ago.

This. You're not gonna be counting your dang bullets when you got incoming and the noise of your buddies shooting next to you.

 

[raygixxer89]

I participate in some IPSC competition.

I was trained by Jeff Cooper back in 1980 and refreshed with him every few years until his death. My practice of not shooting the gun dry, leaving a round in the chamber and one in the magazine comes from that instruction, as does my practice of counting rounds and dropping the used magazine to the ground. Pick up your magazines when your time at the station is over.

A good deal of my shooting time is devoted to timed, competitive handgun shooting.

Oh, well that explains it. A competition shooter. Carry on.

 

[pantannojack]

I never complain about safety features. I learn to use them. And I have ended friendships with friends who dismiss safety rules.

 

[Sevens]

I think it's perfectly fine if each and every individual handles their rounds and their magazines as they see fit, no matter the argument about how one was trained, how one elects to practice or how any or all of these might go out the window in any real fight or situation.

Regardless of any of that... if a handgun is specifically designed to function a particular way and it sometimes or often DOES NOT, then yes, folks are going to complain, discuss it and address it. I can't imagine everyone choosing to accept a design feature that refuses to work and not complaining about it or attempting to fix it.

 

[chief38]

I personally prefer the last shot hold opened feature on semi autos. I too always count my rounds but most do not! I teach others to count rounds as well, but only some actually follow through. Counting rounds has become a habit with me since a teenager. Heck, I even count others shooting when I am not actually firing. Almost no one knows the gun is empty as evidence of them pulling the trigger in an empty chamber.

It is nice to reload prior to your magazine being completely empty and if you have trained yourself to do just that and can remember to do so in a SHTF situation, great! Most don't do that in practicality from what I have seen.

The slide hold open feature not only tells you your gun is empty it makes it easier on some small models to safety check it, rest the gun on the shooting booth's shelf and show everyone it's empty. Yes, you can keep the slide opened manually, however on guns such as a tiny Ruger LCP Max (and alike), it is a royal pain with the miniaturized magazine catch control. They made it so small and non protruding it is very difficult to use.

I have a few guns that were not designed to hold the slide opened on the last round (Colt 1903 and 1908 pocket series M pistols) and I wish they were. Not a deal breaker, but I do prefer it that way.

 

[Nomadmax]

After being deployed for 4 and 1/2 years and being in a more than a few gunfights I can honestly say my mind was not on counting my rounds being fired.
The bolt or slide stop locking to the rear dang sure speeds up getting reloaded and back in the fight.
The was the point of the design to begin with. Or that's how the Marines trained us years ago.

That ^

and it has a different sound on the last round because the bolt is to the rear. That audible heads up has allowed me to reload faster.

 

[robvious]

If I only carried one gun, every time, counting would work, but my choices & round counts vary too much to rely on counting for training.. slide lock happens with all of them.. so that is what I train to...

 

[Old cop]

I can attest, from first hand experience, that you’ll not know how many rounds you fired in a gunfight.

 

[Jim Watson]

I participate in some IPSC competition.

I was trained by Jeff Cooper back in 1980 and refreshed with him every few years until his death. My practice of not shooting the gun dry, leaving a round in the chamber and one in the magazine comes from that instruction, as does my practice of counting rounds and dropping the used magazine to the ground. Pick up your magazines when your time at the station is over.

A good deal of my shooting time is devoted to timed, competitive handgun shooting.

So is mine. Where are you getting IPSC these days? Outside USA?

I call the chamber loaded, magazine empty reload the "Cooper Reload" based on reading his stuff in the gunzines.
I do not recall where he said to reload with a round left in the magazine.

Col Cooper was shooting a 1911, it is a lot easier to count to 7 (6?) and reload than it is to count to 15, 17, or 22. It takes practice for even the revolver shooters to count to six.

Or even to 10. I shoot mostly IDPA ESP and USPSA Limited 10 so I am normally starting out at 10+1. I don't actually count to 10, I look at the stage and say "I will reload right THERE."

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I've lost tracks of how many rounds I have fired when shooting Bullseye.

 

[waffles]

Regardless of whether or not you think counting rounds is good practice or you assume you'll always be able to reload before you get to the end, if the pistol is meant to lock the slide back on empty and no longer does, it (or its magazine) is broken. I'm of the opinion that a broken gun, especially one you're carrying, should be fixed.