Why were 1911's not the PD favorite in the 1950's

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I am lucky to have a nice 1950's pre-27.
Would have been at home in any 1950's PD
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Also lucky to have a 1940's 1911
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Any actual information or insight as to why revolvers were much preferred over the 1911 as a law enforcement sidearm in the 1950's?
 
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While the DA revolver is much easier to learn on, I believe public relations had a lot to do with it.


The intelligent way to carry a 1911 is with a loaded chamber, a cocked hammer, and the safety on.


Carrying your gun like that would have the station getting bunches and bunches of telephone calls from scared/irate citizens about police officers carrying cocked guns. OH MY GAAWWWDDD!!!
 
Lighter, smaller, less complicated, cheaper, uniformity of ammo for all grades of officers.
It wasn’t until the wonder nine with added capacity showed up that PD / Troopers started looking at autos of any kind. ( *wasn’t Ohio the first troopers to adopt the 9mm?)
Texas Rangers preferred the 1911’s, but certainly not exclusively.

*Edit: sorry, it was Illinois)
 
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Back in those days there was a greater division between the military and the police. I recall classes on Posse Comitatus regulating federal action in local civil matters. Military didn't fly helicopters to enforce law and police didn't dress like special forces.


So I would say the 1911s were seen as military weapons and revolvers as police guns. Times change.
 
Lots of reasons already given and I think they are valid. Cost would have been a big reason too. Back then, and up until the advent of plastic pistols, semi-auto pistols were more expensive than revolvers. In the 1950's, the M1911-A1 was still the standard sidearm for the U.S. military and they were not being sold off as surplus. Back then, if you wanted a 1911, the sole source was Colt and Colt was still busy making replacement slides for the military.
 
While the DA revolver is much easier to learn on, I believe public relations had a lot to do with it.


The intelligent way to carry a 1911 is with a loaded chamber, a cocked hammer, and the safety on.


Carrying your gun like that would have the station getting bunches and bunches of telephone calls from scared/irate citizens about police officers carrying cocked guns. OH MY GAAWWWDDD!!!

That was definitely a thing. It was one of the reasons FN developed the SFS (Safety Fast Shooting) system for the Hi Power.

This is an FN SFS Hi Power in Condition 0 (cocked, safety off, ready to fire), Note the fully cocked hammer and the lowered safety lever position:

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This is the same pistol in Condition 1 (cocked, safety on), Note the hammer position and the raised safety lever:

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Here's the pistol after it's been fired. Note the very slightly lower hammer position and the lowered safety lever:

001D1678-C188-485E-AA65-F3CE217A7886_zpstvf36pwj.jpg


With the SFS system the hammer is a split system where once the pistol is cocked, the base of the hammer remains cocked while the arm of the hammer is pressed forward against a hammer block, an operation that also raises the safety into the "safe" position. Depressing the safety lowers the hammer block and snaps the arm of the hammer back against the previously cocked base of the hammer making the pistol ready to fire.

It was a lot of engineering basically intended to allow officers to carry a BHP in Condition 1 that looked like it was hammer down in Condition 2 or 3.

The side benefits are:
- it is impossible to holster it with the safety off, if the officer learns to place his thumb behind the hammer when holstering;
- it is easy to verify both visually and tactilely that the pistol is on safe when it's in a holster;
- if the safety is not on in the holster, pressing the hammer forward will safe it;
- the forward hammer position in Condition 1 works well for concealed carry; and
- it eliminated the hammer bite issue for the Hi Power.
 
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There were a lot of PDs back then that had an "issue" gun but also gave the officers the option to carry a personally owned firearm... There were also a lot that didn't provide a gun but had an "approved" list of guns...

I've read a lot of stories of officers back in the post-WWII era who carried 1911s in both .45 ACP and .38 Super...The Texas Ranges and Dallas PD being two...

Bob
 
I think it was more about the image as not to be looking like military.
Police were to protect and serve, not occupy like they do today.
People were extra sensitive about it then, just seeing what happened in Germany and all.
 
One thing I've noticed, and I don't think I've ever heard it discussed before, but when I watch old movies, it seems the "good guys" always carried revolvers. The "bad guys" carried automatics. Usually a Luger, or a P-38.

More public perception, maybe.
 
I think the main reason is because nearly all criminals used revolvers or small under powered semi autos and the average gunfight for years was 3.1 rounds fired. The cops revolver carried almost 50% more ammo than needed so why change? If most criminals would have carried 14 shot Browning HP pistols I imagine police would have changed away from their revolvers.
 
Lots of reasons already given and I think they are valid. Cost would have been a big reason too. Back then, and up until the advent of plastic pistols, semi-auto pistols were more expensive than revolvers. In the 1950's, the M1911-A1 was still the standard sidearm for the U.S. military and they were not being sold off as surplus. Back then, if you wanted a 1911, the sole source was Colt and Colt was still busy making replacement slides for the military.

Yes and no.

The US military wasn't surplussing 1911s in the 50s, 60s and 70s but it wasn't hard to find a surplus 1911 in very good to excellent condition at a really good price.

That was one of Colt's major post war challenges. Colt produced about 629,000 1911A1s during the WWII. Those pistols along with over 1.27 million made by other government contractors including Remington-Rand (about 878,000), Ithaca (about 340,000), Union Switch and Signal (about 55,000), and Singer (500) resulted in 1.9 million 1911A1s produced. Despite the US military not officially surplussing them until now, enough 1911s came home with returning service men that the civilian market was awash in them through the 50s and 60s and they were still common in the 1970s. Colt sold very few commercial 1911s after the war and due to the numbers of 1911s and 1911A1s on hand no new 1911A1s were purchased by the government during the Korean war. Colt was in dire financial straights and was sold to the Penn-Texas Corporation in 1955.

Adding to Colt's sales problems and also contributing to the continued popularity of the revolver in law enforcement were the Colt Commando (49,000 delivered to the US government) and S&W Victory Model revolvers (over 570,000) made during WWII. Many states had received revolvers for national guard units during the war and many of those states then surplussed those revolvers to police departments at no cost, creating more pressure for local departments to standardize on a revolver, rather than a pistol.

Another factor was that the 1911 had a reputation (unwarranted in my opinion) of being difficult to shoot compared to a 4" or 6" .38 Special revolver. From a training perspective, the .38 Special DA revolver was seen as a better choice.

Adding to the picture, while the Victory model remained in limited service in the US military until 1969, surplus revolvers were also common on the used market in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. These also included the re-chambered .38 Special Victory models, some very nicely done, that were re-imported from commonwealth countries that had acquired them through lend-lease, These revolver further flooded the used market, suppressed prices for used commercial revolvers, and competed with new revolver sales.

One thing most shooters today are not aware of is that the US gun manufacturers of the era were some of the most biggest supporters of the Gun Control Act of 1968. The import restrictions and point systems for pistols and revolvers passed to reduce the number of "saturday night specials" were all about limiting importation of less expensive new and surplus handguns, in order to increase sales for US made handguns. It had almost nothing to do with actual crime prevention. We got thrown under the gun control bus by our own firearms industry.

But I digress... You have to also remember that many police departments, in particular smaller departments, did not purchase service handguns under contract and issue them to officers. That's a modern construct that has arisen out of political and civil suit considerations. Prior to those issues arising it was common for officers working in small police departments to acquire their own revolver or pistol, usually from a list of suitable models, and/or with inspection and approval of the police department's armorer or contracted gunsmith. Some departments provided an allowance to purchase a handgun, others did not. Even in departments where service handguns were issued, there was often an approved list for privately owned handguns. Officers back then were more likely to have prior experience and preferences in handguns, and the environment was much less litigious.

For an underpaid police officer that didn't work for a large department that issued service revolvers, a used revolver in very good to excellent condition was preferable to a new revolver. When I started in 1985 - late in the revolver era - the department's officers purchased their own .357 Magnum revolvers and as a result carried a variety of .357 Magnum revolvers including the Ruger Security and Police Service Six, Colt Trooper and Lawman, and various S&W K, L and N frame revolvers chambered in .357 Magnum. I purchased a used Service Six, primarily because it was in excellent condition, had a good reputation, and was significantly less expensive than the available Colt or S&W options at the time. I'd have carried my personal 1911 in a heartbeat, if they'd have let me.
 
S&W had really really effective marketing in the 50s?

Seriously though, in the 40s and 50s the military generally required 1911s to be carried in condition 3. That was the conventional way of carrying a 1911 back then. DA revolvers could be brought into use faster and with one hand. Plus, back then police carried less lethal weapons like saps and night sticks that they trained with and relied on. Today it seems that many of those less lethal close quarter persuaders are no longer an option.

Plus DA revolvers were more traditional and about 50% of the price of a new Colt 1911. In the 50s, and, up through the 1980s frankly, the only real option for a 1911 was Colt. Thompson-Auto Ordnance made some less expensive 1911s beginning in the 70s, but they were considered less reliable. And because many officers had to supply their own weapons, DA revolvers were the choice.
 
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I think the main reason is because nearly all criminals used revolvers or small under powered semi autos and the average gunfight for years was 3.1 rounds fired. The cops revolver carried almost 50% more ammo than needed so why change? If most criminals would have carried 14 shot Browning HP pistols I imagine police would have changed away from their revolvers.

It's interesting to look at the available data on rounds fired, some of the reasons why and some of then affects that are due to the switch to semi-auto pistols.

Officers began firing a greater number of rounds, on average, once they had a high capacity pistol (chambered most often in 9mm Luger).

That said, it's hard to say exactly why that happened or attribute it all to high capacity semi-autos as there are a lot of variables and other changes that occured at the time. For example, the switch from revolvers to pistols also occured at the same time Reagan started his war on drugs. He was a big supporter of law enforcement and, with the best of intentions, over amped the threat posed to officers by drug cartels, etc, and not just nudged but outright shoved police culture in the US down the slippery slope to a much more militarized police force and culture that has blurred the lines between police and military operations and equipment.

That shift in culture is evident in a change in expressed attitudes from "to serve and protect" to expressed attitudes of "us against the civilians" and "whatever it takes to get home tonight". At the same time there have been changes in justification to use deadly force from a combination of both a legal justification to use deadly force accompanied by a lack of any reasonable alternative, to a current view that is more likely to rely solely on a minimal legal threshold being reached, even when other non lethal force options are reasonable. This is a result of the "whatever it takes to get home tonight" attitude, backstopped by a culture that perceives both increased threat and less need/responsibility to assume personal risk to avoid a potential mistake of fact shooting. This increases the number situations where officers fire in the first place.

Officers also tend to fire more rounds in situations where more officers are involved. A single officer fires an average of 3.6 shots. Two officers increase that to 5.0 shots each and three or more officers will fire an average of 6.5 shots each, creating a demonstrated correlation between number of officers and shots fired by each.

However to give that more meaning and context you also have to consider the hit percentages. LA County for example found the hit percentage was 51% in single officer involved shootings, but dropped to 23% with two officers and to just 9% with three or more officers involved. That makes sense when you consider the circumstances where multiple officers are likely to be involved, such as barricaded suspects, with greater standoff distances and a greater potential for an officer to both shoot more and miss a higher percentage of shots.

Consequently, while not all of the increased number of rounds fired in groups of officers is attributable to just the group dynamic, there is a demonstrated psychological effect where officers shoot more just because other officers are shooting. In those cases having to reload a revolver no doubt helped keep the round count down when officers went empty and the shooting just stopped.

Similarly, the 6 shot capacity limit also helped address another psychological effect. Under stress, the more rounds an officer fires the harder it is for an officer to stop firing. In other words the longer the officer's brain is sending the "go" signal, the longer it takes the officer's brain to generate a "stop" signal after the threat is no longer present. Running dry at six rounds and having to take a minimum of around 2 seconds to reload ensured way more than ample time for the "stop" signal to occur. If you've got 16 rounds in the pistol, you're much more likely to fire that 7th shot after firing six, even when the threat is now neutralized.
 
Education and opportunity.

Wide acceptance of auto pistols in the US law enforcement generally followed the increasing education of police officers and requirements of high school, and later, college education. Additionally, opening law enforcement to women also contributed to the move from handguns that were difficult for 65+% of the adult population to use safely let alone accurately.

I have been fire service. The commonly-repeatedly line there is “200 years of tradition uninterrupted by innovation “. Law enforcement, as a paramilitary organization, often has similar traits but my opinion is as thinkers and new viewpoints come in, that tradition changes. Revolvers had outdated 100-year old ergonomics and eventually the threat of lawsuits eventually overcame bureaucratic inertia.

Serious shooters carried the 1911 and other John Browning guns from inception to today as noted above. That speaks to the genius of JMB, as he developed a horseback cavalry gun 100 years ago that still has a place in the cop’s holster today. Two observations - I am seeing less 1911s in law enforcement holsters today compared to 10 years ago, but guys with them look like the tough, SWAT type that look ready to rumble (which reduces bad guy targeting). The move from 1911 platform in the US military special ops to Glocks seems to translate to at least the FBI SWAT teams I have seen recently - I think SWAT special agents can still carry a 1911, but almost exclusively they seem to have gone to Glocks. (Correct me if am wrong)

Also, please understand what Posse Comitatus means in the United States. There was a specific pro-Klan law passed by the Democrats in 1878 to disenfranchise the black citizens. Elements of Posse Comitatus continue as policy and law today, which effectively restricts the federal military and naval authority to execute law enforcement missions. Cops in an outer protective vest and a helmet in the trunk isn’t Posse Comitatus. It is a term often mis-used and muddies the water on an important issue.

Posse Comitatus Act - Wikipedia
 
Similarly, the 6 shot capacity limit also helped address another psychological effect. Under stress, the more rounds an officer fires the harder it is for an officer to stop firing. In other words the longer the officer's brain is sending the "go" signal, the longer it takes the officer's brain to generate a "stop" signal after the threat is no longer present. Running dry at six rounds and having to take a minimum of around 2 seconds to reload ensured way more than ample time for the "stop" signal to occur. If you've got 16 rounds in the pistol, you're much more likely to fire that 7th shot after firing six, even when the threat is now neutralized.

Good analysis. However, law enforcement has moved to stopping threats in accordance with Garner and other precedents. There is no magic number to stop a theat. Positing that more bullets fired is somehow excessive force is a Black Lives Matter (More) argument, which may or may not hold on the street.

Limited capacity in revolvers and shotguns played a part in the Newhall Massacre. A Glock 17 in the troops’ hands might have made a difference. Revolver Guy gets into it a bit....https://revolverguy.com/newhall-shooting-tactical-analysis/
 
Reloading a 1911 was a lot more difficult back then. You had to drop the magazine and then thumb in a bunch of stubby loose rounds, and then get the magazine back into the gun.

Wait, you say you can have magazines preloaded and just swap them out? Didn't seem to be the mentality back then. The gun came with just the one mag. :rolleyes:
 
I well remember the U S Military thru the DCM surplussing 45 autos to NRA members in the pages of American Rifleman back in the 60. I believe the price for one at the time was $17. I am unaware if any police agencys took advantage of this to rearm their officers.
Additionally; my understanding of police use of revolvers back then is they were deemed safer and didn't require the extra training necessary to carry a 45 auto.
This was a long time ago and my memory is hazy so hopefully others can fill in additional information.

Jim
 
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I was a cop in the late 70s, during the transition to autos. I remember 1911s being introduced. The problem with them, as I remember, was a lot of cops shot themselves, not being used to carry a cocked and locked pistol. A majority of cops simply aren't gun people. I know when the switch over to Glocks, etc, there was a lot of accidental discharges because people weren't familiar with them. DA revolvers are simpler to use, very safe for cops who may shoot them in qualification only twice a year.

The military way to carry a 1911 is in condition 3 because (when I was in the Army) there were a lot of unintentional discharges and people were getting wounded. Or worse.
 
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