Wide Range of 40 cal loads

[FloridaFlier]

My son is a recently certified police officer. I want to load a bunch of .40cal practice ammo for him. His issue duty load is 165gr. I bought several types of copper plated bullets from Berry's and X-Treme, all 165 gr.

Here's the problem. My Speer manual says to start with 5.8gr of W-231, and the max is 6.3gr.

My Lymans says the range is 5.2 to 5.8gr, also for W-231(HP-38).

The Hodgdon website says to use 4.7 to 5.4gr.

All data is for FMJ, but Berry's and X-Treme both say that mid range FMJ would be a good max load.

Where do I start with these wide spreads? I don't like to experiment. Unless it's in the manual, I prefer not to use unpublished loads. I would like to stay within published limits.

Why are the spreads so different for the same powder? I would appreciate advice.

 

[John R]

I would start at 5 grains and work up from there, until you get what you want.

 

[FloridaFlier]

I would start at 5 grains and work up from there, until you get what you want.

I may have to do something like that, but 5 grains is below the minimum load recommended by both Speer and Lyman.

Probably the Hodgdon website is the most current data, but it is also the lowest charge by far.

Also my son lives in another city, so I won't be there when he tries the various loads. Maybe I'll have to buy a 40?

 

[scooter123]

Sierra says 4.6-5.7 grains. Since the consensus seems to indicate the Speer data is the outlier I would set that Speer data to the side. While it's probably perfectly safe with the Speer Gold Dot I've seen other instances when data that Speer developed for the Gold Dot shows indicators of excess pressure when used with different bullets.

BTW, if you want your son to have a true LEO equivalent to Speers 165 grain High Energy loading you'll want to pick up some Longshot. Combine that with Extreme's 165 grain heavy plate hollow point and 7.5 grains of Longshot will produce a load that is an exact match for the 165 grain, 1150 fps. of the High Energy LE load. Recoil and muzzle blast is also such an exact match that I suspect that Speer may be loading their ammo with Longshot.

 

[MyDads38]

My son is a recently certified police officer. I want to load a bunch of .40cal practice ammo for him. His issue duty load is 165gr. I bought several types of copper plated bullets from Berry's and X-Treme, all 165 gr.

Here's the problem. My Speer manual says to start with 5.8gr of W-231, and the max is 6.3gr.

My Lymans says the range is 5.2 to 5.8gr, also for W-231(HP-38).

The Hodgdon website says to use 4.7 to 5.4gr.

All data is for FMJ, but Berry's and X-Treme both say that mid range FMJ would be a good max load.

Where do I start with these wide spreads? I don't like to experiment. Unless it's in the manual, I prefer not to use unpublished loads. I would like to stay within published limits.

Why are the spreads so different for the same powder? I would appreciate advice.

Just to clarify one point-the Hodgdon site information is for the Berry's plated bullet-165 gr. BERB-FP. Whereas, the Speer manual is probably for a FMJ-Jacketed bullet. The Lyman data, I don't know at this point, sorry.

Loading Plated bullets can be confusing, since you can either: 1) Use data for lead bullets, or 2) Use starting to mid-range data for jacketed bullets. At least the Hodgdon site shows loads for the Berry's plated bullets.

I have been using TiteGroup with the X-treme 40 cal. plated bullets using Hodgdon's data. I'm only loading for practice/range ammo, so 4.5 grs. is the Starting Load for the 165 gr. FP; and the same 4.5 gr. load is smack in the middle of the data for the 180 gr. FP. Both shoot well in my M&P 40 FS and my SD40VE. I've found that using a little more crimp on the 180 gr. bullets tightens my groups, but both my guns shoot 165 gr. bullets to tighter groups, at least with this powder. I have yet to try other powders-yet.

I think it would be hard to load ammo for your son's gun, when you couldn't check C.O.L. in his chamber or mags. I would personally want to be there to field any issues that might arise when testing the loads. I hope you get things sorted out. You may want to investigate the Lee Bulge Buster kit for 40 S&W. With range brass, I find it to be a necessity

 

[fredj338]

Really, you have no data for plated bullets. The data you have is for jacketed, not the same. Plated like to be loaded between a lead & jacketed bullet. I will often use an avg data from three sources. Since plated data is not available, I would use avg midrange jacketed data, that should provide decent performance.

 

[Will2]

If it was me, I'd buy the same model 40 cal that your son has for a duty gun. That way you can work up the loads together.

I'd start with the 231 to get a light practice load that cycles. I have always learned a lot from light loads.

Then work up with the 231 to see how close you can get to his duty ammo, staying within a manual you are comfortable with. Close might be good enough at this time.

Having a quantity of light practice loads and heavier loads that you both can shoot will be educational and enjoyable. You can see where that takes you...
just my $.02.

Will

 

[rwsmith]

This is published data from trusted manufacturers..

The lowest charge stated won't stick in the barrel and a mid load from a combination of published data has only a miniscule chance of causing any trouble in a decent gun. I would imagine you would have to work up something pretty hot to mimic a service load. Pick a low to middle load and test them out. Work up from there .2 grains at a time.

I've seen some variable data, but the example you have take the cake for a pistol round.

Like mentioned already, I don't think 231 will get where you are going with a service load. If the velocities required exceed the top end of the plated bullets, I'd highly recommend coated as an alternative.

As an explanation for the variance in data, the tests are conducted by different people, with different guns or test barrels of varying lengths, on different days, under different conditions, and so on.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

I've never met a hand loader that didn't like to experiment. That's part of the fun.

 

[aurora40]

Why are the spreads so different for the same powder? I would appreciate advice.

I would guess they use different cases, different actual bullets, different primers, and possibly different OALs. And as far as minimums, different people/companies may have differing guidelines or patience or whatever for testing how low a powder charge can safely go. I don't think it's as simple as bullet weight and powder choice.

 

[FloridaFlier]

Thanks to all for the inputs. I thought about, but decided against, buying a Glock so I could evaluate ammo better for my son. Hard to do, as I have become a revolver guy. Down here in SW Florida, it seems like everybody reloads and I got tired of claiming and chasing my brass. I did buy a 40cal case gauge when I ordered the new dies for my Dillon 550. Glocks are not known to be picky about ammo.

I am aware of other powders that might more closely replicate the duty load, but as you guys know, you load what you have. I have plenty of HP-38, so I'll stick with it.

I thought that the 'BERB' in Hodgdons website might be for Berry's, but found no confirmation there, but the net shows the question asked and answered a dozen times, so I'll accept that as the best answer.

In the 'for what it's worth' op-ed piece, I was trying to explain to my wife how valuable this forum is, and how all these people I've never met offered answers to my questions and even researched loads. Thanks to all for that.

 

[Kframerbluvr]

If your son is not a reloader, he may be able to buy the same ammo his department uses for training for state contract price plus excise tax.

 

[just for fun]

using the same bullet and loading to a AOL of 1.125 (E-treme 165 gr.) I've had the good luck od finding two powders that I found to work vey well with this bullet. First was Hodgdon universal at 5.1 grains, mag primers (cuz that's what I had on hand at the time) Adv. 987, ES 36, Sd. 12 /10 rounds. Pinch faster, 5.3 grains of Ramshot Zip, standard federal primers. Adv. 1002, ES.39, SD 12/ 10 rounds. both these loads are in the middle of FMJ loads and are what I was looking for with this bullet. Oh ya, both shoot better than I can hold them-standing!

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Hodgdon data

Really, you have no data for plated bullets. The data you have is for jacketed, not the same. Plated like to be loaded between a lead & jacketed bullet. I will often use an avg data from three sources. Since plated data is not available, I would use avg midrange jacketed data, that should provide decent performance.

The published data shown on the Hodgdon site for the .40 S&W with WIN 231 and a "155 GR BERB FP" would certainly seem to me to be plated data.

Berry lists both regular plated flat point & a hollow base heavy plate version as well and states it can be loaded to "any published load for a jacketed bullet as long as it is the same weight".

The Hodgdon data for the Hornady 155 GR XTP starts at 0.1 GR less of WIN 231and tops off at the same 6.0 GR of WIN 231. Ballistics are pretty close.

The Hodgdon data for 165 GR BERB FP is also very close to that of another jacketed bullet, the 165GR SIE JHP. Again, very close ballistics.

Listed C.O.L. are all identical at 1.125".

I would opine that there is indeed published load data for plated bullets available. Starting near the middle of the various ranges shown by the OP from different sources seems prudent to me if he's going to use HP-38 or WIN 231. Just IMHO.

Cheers!

 

[gwpercle]

Start in the middle.
Whenever I start loading a new round , powder or bullet weight I have found a good thing to do, is to add the starting, and maximum charge weights and average them all out so you have a middle of the road load.
I try to get at least three different sources, four is preferred. Start there and after firing a few test groups, adjust either lower or higher to suit you and your guns needs.
Gary

 

[Vortec MAX]

I've seen some variable data, but the example you have take the cake for a pistol round.

I got one for ya... for 125 gr jacketed bullet in 38 SPL, three manuals list max load of Power Pistol as 6.1 grains. The Hornady 9th lists max as 6.8 grains.

Another:

Same caliber and bullet, but for Unique. Four manuals list max load as 5.7 grains, one lists it as 6.0 grains, but Sierra says max is 6.8 grains. Huge difference. Makes it very confusing to know what is safe.

Mike

 

[Maximumbob54]

I haven't seen it said outright so I feel the need to say it. If it's a Glock then you need to have him send you a spent case and examine it. If he's shooting full power .40 loads and you want to load full power loads for him then you need to verify the case wall integrity if you plan to reload any of these cases. Someone mentioned the Lee Bulge Buster and I agree to use this on range brass if your chamber is fully supported. But if his Glock is leaving "Glock Bulge" (Google image search that to find nearly blown out case heads from 155gr - 165gr full power loads) then you don't want to reload that brass again for the same gun. If this is a one time only reload then this is all moot. I second finding Longshot for real full power loads. Those feel like a 10mm load almost. Not quite but almost. No other powder I've tried comes as close.

 

[Rule3]

As mentioned by several folks above the Hodgdon Website specifically lists the Berry 165 bullet so what is the confusion???

So there is data you seek.

From Hodgdon's 2013 Annual Manual
BRANDS:
1. bar-Barnes 2. btb-Beartooth Bullets 3. Berb-Berry's bullets 4.BLX-Bull-X
5. CPB-Cast Performance Bullets 6. FA-Freedom Arms 7.HDY-Hornady
8.LY- Lyman SPM 9. MEI-Meister 10. NOS-Nosler 11. REM- Remington
12 SIE-Sierra 13. SPT- Swift 14.SPR-Speer 15.Wdlgh-Woodleigh
16 Win- Winchester 17. Spire-Sinterfire
PRIMERS:
LR-large rifle
LRM-large rifle magnum
SR-small rifle
SRM-small rifle magnum
LP-large pistol
LPM-large pistol magnum
SP-small pistol
SPM-small pistol magnum
DATA:
C-compressed powder charge
BULLETS-----BULLETS:
AB-Accubond | A-Max-Hornady match | BK-Blitz King | BR-bench rest |
BT-ballistic tip | BTSP-boat tail spire point | E-tip-Polymer tipped copper bullet | FMC-full metal case | FMJ-full metal jacket | fmjbt-full metal jacket boat tail | FN-flat nose | FP-flat point | FPJ-full plated jacket |
FS-fail safe | FTX-flex tip | GC-gas check | GDHP-Gold Dot Hollow point |
GDSP-Gold Dot Soft point | GMX-Guilding Metal Expanding bullet |
GS-Grand Slam | HB-hollow base | HC-hollow cavity | HP-hollow point |
HPBT-hollow point boat tail | HSP-hollow soft point | IB-Inter Bond |
JFP- jacketed flat point | JHC-jacketed hollow cavity | JRN-jacketed round nose | JSWC-jacketed semi-wadcutter | LBBWC-lead bevel base wadcutter|
LCN-lead conical nose | LF-lead free | LFN-lead flat nose |
LFNPB-lead flat nose plain base | LFP- lead flat point | LHBWC- lead hollow base wadcutter | LRN-lead round nose | LSWC-lead semi wadcutter |
MK-MatchKing | MT-SP-Mag Tip soft point | Part-Partition |
PSPCL-Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | RN-round nose | SB-solid base |
SBT-spitzer boat tail | SCIR-Scirocco | SJ-short jacket | SMP-semi-pointed | SP- spire point | SPT-spitzer | SPBT-soft point boat tail |
SSP-single shot pistol | SST-Super Shock Tip | ST-silver tip |
SX-super explosive | TMJ-Totally Metal Jacket | TNT-varmint bullet |
TSX-Triple Shock X bullet | TTSX-Tipped Triple Shock X bullet |
V-Max-varmint express | WC-wadcutter | W/GCK-With Gas Check |
X-x bullet | XBT-x boat tail | XBTC-x boat tail coated | XFB-x flat base |
XPB-x pistol bullet | XTP-extreme terminal performance

 

[Jellybean]

If your son is not a reloader, he may be able to buy the same ammo his department uses for training for state contract price plus excise tax.

This is the best suggestion I've seen yet. The little backwoods PD I used to work for bought their ammo through a dealer that was on the Winchester law enforcement program. I couldn't load lead ammo for the price they were paying for their Winchester Ranger ammo, although it still made me cringe to shoot all that stuff into a dirt bank.

Have your son talk to the range officer or who ever is in charge of buying or passing out their ammo. He may be able to buy it through the dept. or the dept. may let their officers shoot a certain amount of ammo for practice or training. I was my PD's range officer and we gave the officers all the ammo and targets they wanted if they wished to practice on their own. It's a good idea to talk to them anyway to make sure they have no laws. restrictions or policies against using reloads for training purposes.

 

[fredj338]

The published data shown on the Hodgdon site for the .40 S&W with WIN 231 and a "155 GR BERB FP" would certainly seem to me to be plated data.

Berry lists both regular plated flat point & a hollow base heavy plate version as well and states it can be loaded to "any published load for a jacketed bullet as long as it is the same weight".

The Hodgdon data for the Hornady 155 GR XTP starts at 0.1 GR less of WIN 231and tops off at the same 6.0 GR of WIN 231. Ballistics are pretty close.

The Hodgdon data for 165 GR BERB FP is also very close to that of another jacketed bullet, the 165GR SIE JHP. Again, very close ballistics.

Listed C.O.L. are all identical at 1.125".

I would opine that there is indeed published load data for plated bullets available. Starting near the middle of the various ranges shown by the OP from different sources seems prudent to me if he's going to use HP-38 or WIN 231. Just IMHO.

Cheers!

You are correct, there is some plated data in some sites. Every year a little more gets added. The Hodgdon data would be fine if he is loading that bullet. Fwiw, very close doesn't mean ****. Test platforms alone cause quite a variation. I've loaded enough plated & identical jacketed to know there is a diff. The diff just doesn't matter as much if you stay off the top end loads.