DeplorabusUnum
Member
Consensus seems to be that everyone loves W231 in 38 special, that it meters well, and it's accurate in loads from 3.1 to 4.5 gr.. I love it too. Pick a charge and have fun shooting. You'll figure out what your gun likes.
Winchester 231 and 38 special
- Thread starter JamesWP
- Start date
My Speer #13 manual lists 3.8 as a starting load and 4.3 as a top load for standard pressure data with 231 for their 158 gr swaged lead bullets. For +P data they start at the 4.3 load and go up to 4.7 grs. This is very similar to the data provided by the original mfg, Winchester.
Nothing wrong with HP-38/W-231 in the 38 Special cartridge case. It's a good powder for light to full power loads in 38 Special. Might not be the cleanest burning powder by today's standards, but versatile and meters well through my RCBS Uniflow.
Birdhunter6
Member
231 is a very versatile powder. I've found it to be very accurate in all my non magnum calibers and in magnum target loads.
Like many others I load 4 grains in .38 special. Projectile is a 158 grain Berry's plated flat point.
Like many others I load 4 grains in .38 special. Projectile is a 158 grain Berry's plated flat point.
kbm6893
Member
I don't have a chronograph and probably will never get one. I don't test loads or tweak anything. I got into reloading after Newtown purely to be able to make paper punching ammo. I do have several manuals but pretty much just use the Hodgon site. I've compared the data from it to other manuals and while there is usually a mild variation between the site and some of the manuals(but isn't there always variations between different sources?), the data on the site is in the same range as the manuals. I don't change bullet types and I rarely even change primer brands (before the current madness where primers are impossible to get, I mostly used CCI. I have used a brick each of Winchester and Federal). I never load low range because I don't want a squib, so I normally go middle of the round between minimum and maximum charge. If the minimum is 3.2 and the maximum is 3.8, I'll load no higher than 3.6. Whenever I load a new caliber I will load 5 rounds at say 3.4, 5 at 3.5, and 5 at 3.6. When the all go bang I settle on the 3.6.
I weigh every charge and that's why I like HP38. Dead on every time. Are there better powders out there? I'm sure. Never tried anything other than HP38 and the Red Dot I started with when powders were impossible to find. That metered horribly. I do have 3 pounds of Trail Boss. Haven't even tried them yet and have no intention to unless I have no other choice. I prefer using one powder for everything. No chance of using wrong powder when I switch calibers that way.
James, I think that your confusion is caused because you are comparing 38 Special data to 38 Special +P data in a Speer loading manual. Flip back a few pages and you'll see alwslate is correct that 3.8 to 4.3 grains is the correct load data for 38 Special for what you want in your Colt.
Hodgdon's data of 3.1 grs starting and 3.7 grs as the dreaded word MAXIMUM for 231 and 158 gr lead bullets is just flat wrong. Their data is not developed by them and is just copied from a variety of sources. Those charge weights look like mislabeled copied data for Bullseye or 700x or some other very fast powder. Standard pressure maximum for the .38spl is 17,000 PSi. 20,000 PSi for +P loads. I still don't understand why so many handloaders are scared to death to load anything much above squib level for the .38 spl in modern K frame S&Ws. 3.7 grs of 231 is below recommended starting level in the Speer #13 manual. Get one and you will learn that standard pressure maximum level is higher for both .32 acp and .380 acp than the 20,000 psi level for .38 spl. Relax folks. You're not going to blow up your K frames if you dare venture in to the 14,000 psi range with your handloads.
In my collection of old Winchester load manuals the 4.0 starting 4.5 max seems to be the load for 158 lead SWC up until 2006 when it drops to a 3.7 max for lead SWC and 4.1 for jacketed. The current Hodgdens as noted above is 3.1 starting and 3.7 max for lead SWC and 3.8 starting and 4.3 max for jacketed.
Stu
Stu
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That 3.7 max is Hodgdon's nonsense. The pressure of that load is way below the 17,000 psi limit for std pressure .38 spl. Where they got that from is anybody's guess. Maybe some Cowboy action data they copied. One thing you can be sure of is that is not data actually developed by Hodgdon and proven to be at standard maximum pressure level for the .38 spl. I looked at data in my Lyman 4th edition Cast bullet manual and found a load for 231 with their 158 gr cast RN bullet. The old CUP maximum for .38 spl std loads was 18,000 CUP. They show 3.5 grs of 231 with the 158 gr bullet at 9,600 CUP. Just a little over half of std pressure maximum.
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Please reread my post. The drop to 3.7 max for lead comes from the 2006 Winchester loading manual.
Stu
Stu
How about a look see? My last ACTUAL Winchester published manual shows no such thing.
I have it on my desktop but for some reason can't upload it. I get this error message..
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I'll contact Lee and see what's going on.
Stu
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Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.
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I'll contact Lee and see what's going on.
Stu
I just checked the Hodgdon website regarding their so called MAXIMUM load of 3.7 grs of 231 with a 158 gr cast SWC. Velocity is listed as only 834 FPS out of a 7.7" pressure barrel at 14,600 CUP. Yep CUP, not psi. CUP maximum pressure was either 18,000 or 18,500, can't remember without checking. This is undoubtedly light Cowboy action data. Just another example of Hodgdon's ridiculous unreliable mix of copied data.
To put an end to this, I've copied the 2006 Winchester Reloading Data into my drop box and the link is
Dropbox - Winchester 2006 copy.pdf - Simplify your life
anyone can go and view the information.
There is an asterisk next to the load but I cannot find an explanation of the asterisk anywhere in the load manual. Perhaps someone will have better luck.
Stu
Dropbox - Winchester 2006 copy.pdf - Simplify your life
anyone can go and view the information.
There is an asterisk next to the load but I cannot find an explanation of the asterisk anywhere in the load manual. Perhaps someone will have better luck.
Stu
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I just looked at your 2006 data and as I expected Hodgdon's data is just a copy of what's in it. I can't find the asterisk reference either but if you could you would probably see it refers to Cowboy or target load data. Several of the cast bullets so marked are RNFP types. The bottom line is that 3.7 grs of 231 is in NO way a maximum pressure load. Look at the 14,600 CUP pressure listed and compare it to the 18,500 CUP max for std pressure loads. Thanks for the information. Maybe it will help to clear up the misunderstanding about 231 and castbullets.
For what it's worth my Speer #12 manual has a load range of 4 to 4.4 grains of 231 with a velocity of 792 for the lower charge and 878 for the higher charge out of a 6" barreled S&W model 14. This is with a Speer 158 grain swaged lead round nose. I am not an expert but I would think you could lower the charge a few 10ths of a grain and not have problems.
When I loaded a full load of w231 in my 686 6" revolver with a 158 lead bullet and a 38 case........
my records show a 951 fps average.
My 2" J frame with Blue Dot powder can get the same fps.
Later.
OutWest50
Member
I have used W-W 231 for years for 38 Special light target/plinking loads. 148 gr. HBWC with 3.1 gr. W-W 231. Chronograph shows 740 fps out of a 6" S&W K-38.
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Hogden online loading data is worth exactly what you paid for it....They are a distributor, nothing more.
I trust (and paid for) real reloading manuals, published by bullet manufacturers (Speer, Sierra, Hornady), who actually TESTED their loads.
I trust (and paid for) real reloading manuals, published by bullet manufacturers (Speer, Sierra, Hornady), who actually TESTED their loads.
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I assumed, maybe wrongfully so, that Hodgdon tests all their loads, but if they don't, who does?
As for paper load manuals, I'm certainly in agreement. There's much data that's not available on the Internet, but many of today's reloaders don't know that and/or prefer not to pay for load data anyway.
Hodgen tests nothing. They simply aggregate data from other unknown sources (they don't say). Just like LEE.
People who buy firearms, components, tools, etc, but won't pay for a book? I guess that's their problem.
Did anyone ever think of asking Hodgdon about it?
Stu
Hello Stu. We have our own ballistic lab with 3 technicians working full time loading ammunition and firing it through test barrels. We have always had one of the most up to date and advanced labs of any company in the industry and have helped and trained many other companies in the setup of their labs. We started doing pressure testing in the early 1950's and the original pressure test gun receiver resides in the lobby of our corporate office. We do still publish some data that was done by IMR and Winchester powders before our acquisition of them , these are mostly for older obsolete cartidges.
Thank you
Luke Otte
Technical support
6430 vista dr.
Shawnee, Ks 66218
Stu
Hello Stu. We have our own ballistic lab with 3 technicians working full time loading ammunition and firing it through test barrels. We have always had one of the most up to date and advanced labs of any company in the industry and have helped and trained many other companies in the setup of their labs. We started doing pressure testing in the early 1950's and the original pressure test gun receiver resides in the lobby of our corporate office. We do still publish some data that was done by IMR and Winchester powders before our acquisition of them , these are mostly for older obsolete cartidges.
Thank you
Luke Otte
Technical support
6430 vista dr.
Shawnee, Ks 66218
twodog max
Member
Can you provide a verifiable source for your statement concerning the Hodgdon data? It is very easy to make that claim but I would be very interested in checking the source.
For the record I own and use many manuals and have for 50 years
Never mind the above post pretty much blows your claim out of the water. I had read that they had testing facilities in the past. Ahh the internet an wonderful source.
For the record I own and use many manuals and have for 50 years
Never mind the above post pretty much blows your claim out of the water. I had read that they had testing facilities in the past. Ahh the internet an wonderful source.
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Hodgdon lists a lot more data that came from other's testing than that. They apparently bought Speer not long ago and immediately started listing data taken directly from their manuals as Hodgdon data. Guess it was OK to do so if they owned Speer. All the data you see on their website with Hercules - Alliant, IMR , and Winchester powders is basically copied. I guess they consider the .38spl and most other popular handgun ctgs as old and obsolete. I have contacted them a few times with questions, both email and by phone. Guess what, they don't always tell the truth. I called a few times with questions they didn't like such as my chronograph results contradicting their info and was told my results were ridiculous nonsense. I told them my results came from multiple tests and they could verify them and was angrily told they weren't going to waste their time on my bs. So believe what you want to believe folks. I simply trust other sources of data a lot more than I trust Hodgdon's.
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That's good to know. I suspected they did their own work, but didn't know for sure. I say that because I have compared their data with many published paper sources over the years. It appears not to be a copy of someone else's data, at least for the most part, but I haven't examined or compared every load. Hodgdon loads vary somewhat like everyone else's, another reason to believe they shot most or all of the data.
I have about forty or fifty load manuals I use for reference. Some go back to the '50s. I wouldn't load some of that old data, but it's good for comparison purposes. I've met with the Hodgdon people at SHOT shows; certainly personable and forthright folks, not villains or liars.
What!! First I have heard this! CCI/Speer is of course a bullet and ammunition manufacturer, owned by Vista Outdoor. I better google fungfu this and see what I find!
Ed
It does look like they own a lot companies though. Hodgdon, IMR, Winchester, Ramshot, Accurate, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Blackhorn 209 and GOEX brands.
Ed
Ed
It's been a few years since they reportedly bought Speer and started listing load data directly from their manuals on their site as Hogdon's. The way companies change hands these days maybe it's old news by now.
