Winchester 70's - Pre 64

[glshuck]

Anyone in here experts on old Winchester Model 70's that would be willing to give me some guidance? I have bought a couple and are looking at a few more. Trying to study up on them as much as I can, but don't want to fall victim to a rookie mistake on some minor detail that I miss.

 

[Rustywrench]

If you can find a copy of "The Rifleman's RIfle", By Roger C Rule, it is a very good source of information. Unfortunately, like most anything, the information can also be used by the unscrupulous to make "Correct" or "Original" Rifles. I have collected a few over the years, bought one lemon, but came out ok. I would suggest, to look at LOTS of them, internet pictures and such. A good site to look at, Pre64win.com. lots of great information, guns for sale, parts, great pictures. Get familiar with the looks of them. I have lately, seen more, local to me, coming up for sale. I believe, we don't own any guns, we are just caretakers for a period of time.
Disclaimer. I am only an expert at not being an expert... Good luck to you!

 

[TheTinMan]

I worried searching for a pre-64 Winchester Model 70. It's a whole new world and there are so many details… stock shape, finish, sights, etc. I "paid too much" for this 1952 example in 270 Winchester but it is all original and even came with the box including paperwork and pine spacers.



I have a friend who trades and refinishes rifles - especially Model 70s - help me. Also I saw the rifle in person before buying it. That's the only way to be confident it's not refinished IMHO.

 

[rockquarry]

I second the suggestion on the Rule book; money well spent. I sold my original guns and kept only two non-original guns. Finally lost interest in old Model 70s, but it was fun for awhile.

 

[glshuck]

I worried searching for a pre-64 Winchester Model 70. It's a whole new world and there are so many details… stock shape, finish, sights, etc. I "paid too much" for this 1952 example in 270 Winchester but it is all original and even came with the box including paperwork and pine spacers.

View attachment 781085

I have a friend who trades and refinishes rifles - especially Model 70s - help me. Also I saw the rifle in person before buying it. That's the only way to be confident it's not refinished IMHO.

I've got my first old one set to deliver tomorrow. From what I can tell it is all original parts, but the pictures aren't fantastic. I'd be over the moon if its anywhere close to as nice as yours.

I plan on buying the Rule book, but it isn't available on kindle, so I'll have to wait for hard copy. I bought a Winchester book on kindle and it isn't much more than a price guide.

I do agree with @Rustywrench in that more of these are showing up on the market but the intact guns seem to be moving pretty fast if they are priced reasonably. No idea what the long term investment proposition on these is, but I figure the standard caliber run of the mill variations are near the cost of a new model & that helps keep things stable.

I've done enough reading to have a grasp on the obvious; if a gun has incorrect parts etc, but I know i'm not at the level to catch the little stuff yet. Probably need to get ahold of that Rule book before I cost myself some money.

 

[DWalt]

I have an early (1938) .270 standard, and an early featherweight .308, both original. Also have the Rule Book. I have fired neither rifle for over 10 years. Should probably sell them as I no longer hunt.

 

[HuntFish918]

Winchester nut here...had all the cataloged Featherweights except the rare 358 at one point. Have a first year 308 FW. Have two "Gopher Specials" and personally flipped the only pre-war carbine with intact rear bridge that I have ever seen. Have a pre-war SuperGrade and several standard rifles.
Strongly recommend Rule's book.
Study the archived listings for rifles sold at Justin's website, Pre64win.com...he's a great guy with tons of knowledge and willing to help.
Join the Winchester Arms Collectors Association. Great quarterly magazine and tons of people who love to help.
Get your hands on original condition rifles vs. refinished, and you can actually "feel" the difference.
Don't forget, each rifle has a matching numbered bolt written on the bottom in air pencil.
Good luck!
Come to the Wanenmacher Tulsa Arms show sometime and buy one of ours...we're located in the SW corner of the 11 acre building on 33-A.

 

[Bo Rich]

The Model 70 Pre 1964 Winchester is the finest magazine rifle ever made. I have been Collecting, shooting, hunting, and studying them for around 45 years. I am knowledgeable, but it is a never ending learning experience with the Model 70. The Rule book is an excellent guide to the Pre 1964 Model 70. The only problem that I have found with it. Is that it is over 40 years old, and some of the information has been found to be questionable. There are many people on the WACA, including myself that can answer questions. I would suggest joining them. The best advice that I can give a new Collector of the Pre 1964 Winchester Model 70 is to gain knowledge. The more you know. The more enjoyment you will have. It has been wonderful for me.

 

[jakerudy]

The pre-64 has always looked just right to me as what a bolt rifle should be. I've also got a couple of the newer Extreme Hunter models for hunting to avoid worry about banging up a classic.

The museum at Bass Pro in Springfield has an impressive display of them.

 

[rockquarry]

I've got my first old one set to deliver tomorrow. From what I can tell it is all original parts, but the pictures aren't fantastic. I'd be over the moon if its anywhere close to as nice as yours.

I plan on buying the Rule book, but it isn't available on kindle, so I'll have to wait for hard copy. I bought a Winchester book on kindle and it isn't much more than a price guide.

I do agree with @Rustywrench in that more of these are showing up on the market but the intact guns seem to be moving pretty fast if they are priced reasonably. No idea what the long term investment proposition on these is, but I figure the standard caliber run of the mill variations are near the cost of a new model & that helps keep things stable.

I've done enough reading to have a grasp on the obvious; if a gun has incorrect parts etc, but I know i'm not at the level to catch the little stuff yet. Probably need to get ahold of that Rule book before I cost myself some money.

Much better long term investments than old Model '70s. Shoot and enjoy them. Invest elsewhere.

 

[DWalt]

Agree that there are far better investment returns available than those on guns. With some specific exceptions. Many major index stock mutual funds will produce long term total annualized returns, inflation corrected, in the 10-15% range with little risk. Guns should be collected for use and fun, not for monetary return.

 

[glshuck]

Agree that there are far better investment returns available than those on guns. With some specific exceptions. Many major index stock mutual funds will produce long term total annualized returns, inflation corrected, in the 10-15% range with little risk. Guns should be collected for use and fun, not for monetary return.

I suppose that by investment proposition, I should clarify that I mean in regards to vs other guns, not comparatively to the stock market. Not easy to beat the stock market with guns and not easy to liquidate guns either. The one thing that gun collecting offers that the stock market doesn't, is the ability to get a "deal" upfront and have your point of entry well below market value. That portion is part of the fun if you ask me, but requires expert knowledge of what you're looking at, as well as a good grasp of honest market values & understanding of the cost to liquidate etc etc.

All that said, I am much better at saving money by sticking a revolver or rifle in the safe than throwing my extra funds in the market.

 

[30-30remchester]

I spent 50 years collecting, shooting and studying this model. Ask away.

 

[22hipower]

If you're buying as an investment those NIB in rare calibers and/or configurations are getting the highest prices. I suspect they will continue to fetch the highest prices. Whether they can appreciate at any where near the average historical rate of the S&P is a different question altogether.

I have a few, nice classic rifles, a joy to carry on the hunt. In 60 years of buying Winchesters, Colts, S&Ws and more my rule of thumb is buy them because you love them. They're unlikely to make you much money, especially if you hold them a long time. I bought a pre-64 M94 new in 1964 when I was 15 years old (lawn mowing money) and paid the princely sum of $50 for it. Still have it and it is still in great condition. Might be able to sell it for $700 or so today. Wow, a $650 profit, 14 times what I paid for it. However, had I invested that $50 in the S&P in 1964, it would be worth today around $21,000.

 

[Bo Rich]

Well, I think that the first rule in investing is to know what you are investing in. I don't know stocks very well. But, I do know Pre 1964 Model 70 Winchesters. I really don't buy guns to make a profit. I seldom sell my guns. I am a gun guy, and enjoy having fine guns. Most of the rarer Model 70s that I own I purchased back in the 1980s, and 1990s. When I worked a lot, and made good money. Today, being retired I don't purchase guns like I used to. I have just about everything that I want. That is the reward that the smart collector receives. Perhaps, I could of made more investing in other areas. But, then I most likely would not be able to look at a 9 M/M Mauser Carbine made in 1936. Or a Bull Gun in both .308 Win, and .300 Win. Mag. How about original Featherwieghts in .220 Swift, and .257 Roberts? To name afew. You can have all the money in the World, and not find these to buy. How, much are these guns worth? What price do you put on something that you can't have?

 

[glshuck]

Well, just picked up my first pre 64 model 70 from my FFL. So far, it looks to be all original, but I am no expert. It is a 1937 gun, serial number 6542, chambered in .270. Standard configuration gun in a more common caliber, but pretty early and low serial number.

Although it sounds like almost of the model 70s had the same finish, I have read that the very early guns had wax mixed into the finish, which created a slightly different sheen. I can't say I've seen enough of these guns to spot a stock refinish, especially when there is history of people going to great lengths to replicate the original finishes. What I do know, is that there is years and years of gunk on the stock, particularly in the areas where it would be handled. I will post pictures later tonight and let the forum nitpick the daylights out of the gun, but for the time being- what is the safest product I can use to clean the junk off of this without damaging the original finish?

 

[glshuck]

Here it is. Bolt is numbered to the reciever. Reciever isnt drilled and tapped. Bore looks great. Good bit of grime on the gun though from handling, and it's obviously seen some actual use.

I would be curious as to the experts opinions on the originality of the finish on the wood as well as the metal. If more pictures or indoor pictures are warranted, I can certainly take them.

 

[Bo Rich]

glshuck, Congratulations on acquiring your first Winchester Pre 1964 Winchester! On early guns be aware that the rear receiver top should not be drilled, and tapped for a scope mount. You will find this done on a lot of early Model 70s. After they left the factory to mount a scope. Also, all cataloged early Model 70s had steel butt plates. With the exception of the rifles chambered in .375 H&H Magnum. They feature a solid Winchester marked recoil pad.

 

[30-30remchester]

OH MY, absolutely gorgeous. Want some advice? Don't touch it with anything. Fewer and fewer originals survive and anything you do to "spiff it up" will in reality severely harm it.

 

[glshuck]

OH MY, absolutely gorgeous. Want some advice? Don't touch it with anything. Fewer and fewer originals survive and anything you do to "spiff it up" will in reality severely harm it.

All I have done is wipe it with a dry rag and try and toothbrush some of the dirt and grime. There was some literal crud on the gun in the checkering as well as some sort of sticky stuffy on the buttstock. I got most of it off but still some on there as I didn't want to hurt anything by using a product or otherwise.