Winchester 94 .44 Mag feed problem

[anglaispierre]

I started reloading for most of my guns a few years ago. Everything from 38Sp/357 Mag up to 444 Marlin. No problems with any of the others, including two other Winchesters, a 30-30 Win and a 444 Marlin. But the shop sold me semi-wadcutter lead for the 44 Mag Winchester. These fed OK with a Marlin I used to have, but jam in the Winchester. Sometimes, if I ease off the lever and try again several times they feed into the chamber, but sometimes I have to turn the gun upside down, drop the lever and jiggle it about a bit until the cartridge falls out. Even if they do eventually feed into the chamber after several attempts, they are off target. It seems I have upset the balance when they jam.

Anyone else had similar problems?

Feeding individual cartridges directly into the chamber is one solution and they then fire OK. They may not be very accurate, but that is more likely to be as a result of my unsteady hands. At least I then get reasonable groupings. But that is not what a lever action rifle is about. And it is no good if I want to hunt with the rifle.

Jacketed Sierra FPJs feed perfectly, but of course they cost much more. I might just have to “bite the bullet” and pay the price. Pity, because I bought a box of 500 SWCs and have already reloaded 100 or more.

 

[Sebago Son]

Feeding problems with .44 rounds in a '94 Winchester...

I've run into this myself... one thing you may be able to try is to seat the bullets a little deeper and apply a heavier "rolled" crimp to ease the round into the chamber...

Avoid exposed lead on the outside of the round if you can.

The 1894 action was designed for much longer rounds such as the .38-55 and .32-40 and sometimes the stubby .44 rounds are balky in feeding....

Drew

 

[dasnake]

hey sebago

maybe you could inform me on something also, i have a pre 64, 1894, 30.30, i have been trying to find out why it will not take rounds without having to hold the gate open, my gunny says that it is the way of the beast, is this so, thanks.

 

[Sebago Son]

Hey Jake!

Your 1894 should be able to be loaded by pushing the rounds into the loading gate one at a time.... the gate should snap shut after the round passes the cartridge stop. The loading gate and spring are one piece on the 1894. I wonder if the spring is a little weak on yours and the gate isn't spring back, blocking the passage of the rounds...

Drew

 

[dasnake]

sebago

drew, the gate does snap shut, therein lies the problem, i have to hold a round halfway out and push it in with another round, hold it halfway and push it in until the under barrel magazine is full. if i don't do this and push in one round the gate snaps shut and the round is lodged in the receiver and i can't do anything until i cycle the lever, did i say this right, i hope so.

 

[Sebago Son]

Got it now Jake...

Yup, that sounds pretty normal. Sometimes when I'm loading my 94's I push the first round through the gate only up to the rim, which holds the gate open, then I start another round...

Drew

 

[dasnake]

tenk you.

thanks drew, i guess my gunny was right, i guess you get used to this and also get faster, i sure wouldn't want to screw around like this if the james boys were breathing down my neck.

hey are you going to idaho next year?

 

[2152hq]

You should be able to load cartridges in through the gate and let the gate close each time,,and not have to feed that cartridge into the chamber before loading another through the gate.

The closed gate should not be blocked by the cartridge ready to be fed into the chamber.
Even if the tube is full ,,you should be able to push the gate inward and see the next to be chambered round in the tube.

There is a right angle step/face on the front end of the lever inside the action. That step sits as a cartridge stop to the last round in the magazine with the lever closed.
It holds the cartridge in a position by the top edge of the rim, that is
just balanced with the front edge of the loading gate.
The cartridge sits on that lever face with the action closed. But is pushes slightly forward so another round can be loaded when the gate is depressed.


If the lever is worn, or it's pivot pin worn, that 'step/cartridge stop face altered,,it will allow the round to come back just enough to block the gate from being pushed inward to load.

Or the gate forward edge can be worn or altered so it can't pick up the cartridge and move it forward slightly when depressed.
There's a small bevel on it's forward edge underside to assist the cartridge forward slightly by pushing on the rim.
Could be a combination of both especially in an older well used rifle.


Leaving a round half in/half out is clearing the way and allowing the loading process to go around the problem the cartridge stop and/or gate is causing.

Many people do use that loading method though to avoid getting a finger tip pinched in the loading port each time a round is pushed in.

 

[anglaispierre]

I've run into this myself... one thing you may be able to try is to seat the bullets a little deeper and apply a heavier "rolled" crimp to ease the round into the chamber...

Avoid exposed lead on the outside of the round if you can.

I have come to the conclusion that it is the shoulder on the SWC that causes the problem. No more SWCs for this gun once the current supply is used.

I see my thread has been hi-jacked by the 30-30 loading problem. No problem. My 30-30 will not accept another cartridge if the last one was pushed all the way in. I have to leave the previous one still showing. Not quite as easy as it sounds, as the magazine spring wants to push it out. I hold it in place with my little finger until I can push it in with the next cartridge. The 44Mag and 444 Marlin will accept another cartridge if the last one was pushed all the way in. There has obviously been a change in design. The manual for the 30-30 says: " .... push forward on the cartridge until all but the rim has entered the loading port. Then, insert the next cartridge ...". But he manual for the Top Tang Safety Version (like my 444 Marlin) and the manual for the cross-bolt hammer stop (like my 44 Mag) both say the same. Maybe someone forgot to update the manuals when they updated the rifles.

Such is life!

 

[dasnake]

i'm sorry

sorry if it appears i did the hijack on purpose, sebago answered and it was something i have been trying to get answered for a long time, the next time i have a query i will open a new thread, again i apologize for the hijack of your thread.

 

[anglaispierre]

sorry if it appears i did the hijack on purpose, sebago answered and it was something i have been trying to get answered for a long time, the next time i have a query i will open a new thread, again i apologize for the hijack of your thread.

No problem. We're all here to help each other. Hope my contribution was helpful. My 30-30 is a 1979 model, but had hardly been used when I bought it 5 years ago. Even then, if I pushed a cartridge all the way in I couldn't load any more. However, as a result of your comments I have examined the gun more carefully. I found that rim of the last cartridge makes contact with the loading gate as it is depressed, effectively blocking it. If I pressed the gate slightly harder than normal with my thumb (and I mean only slightly, I don't mean using undue force) I could move the cartridge and open the gate fully to allow the next cartridge to be loaded. Having found I could open the gate with my thumb I tried again with a cartridge. It works. I just hadn’t pushed hard enough. Try it with yours. As a result of what I had found I examined the 44 Mag and the 444 Marlin Winchesters. I found there was slight contact between cartridge rim and loading gate with the former and slightly greater contact with the latter, but so slight it could hardly be felt. This compared with much greater contact and resistance in the 30-30. I will probably continue to load all of them in the old way. Old habits …..

If you hadn't "hijacked" my thread I may never have discovered this. I used the expression jokingly. Didn't mean any offence. So continue doing the same if you feel you can contribute to the discussion. That's what the forum is all about.

And if anyone else wishes to "hijack" my thread with a point of interest, feel free to do so as long as admin doesn't object.

 

[anglaispierre]

I've run into this myself... one thing you may be able to try is to seat the bullets a little deeper and apply a heavier "rolled" crimp to ease the round into the chamber...

Avoid exposed lead on the outside of the round if you can.

The 1894 action was designed for much longer rounds such as the .38-55 and .32-40 and sometimes the stubby .44 rounds are balky in feeding....

Drew

I have examined the action carefully while loading. It seems to be the hard shoulder of the SWC that catches. Seating the bullets deeper won't help. The shoulder will still be there. In any event I am always reluctant to deviate from loading instructions relating to seating depth as this could adversely affect pressures. I have now put a number of cartridges through without firing to see if they are marked when they jam. Each one was examined with a magnifying glass before and after. The ones that wouldn't feed through, or only did so with a bit of a push showed a definite mark on the shoulder. In some cases a shaving was removed and was left in the mouth of the chamber. Even though it was very thin, I would hate to think that it could find its way into the barrel.

Changing the crimp wouldn't make any difference because it's not the brass that is jamming.

It now seems to me that SWC bullets are not suitable for lever action reloading because of the angle they are presented to the chamber and the shape of the bullet. They present no problem with a revolver, but I don't have a 44 Mag revolver. I will use up my stock of reloaded cartridges by loading directly into the chamber, and will discard the remaining bullets.

 

[Sebago Son]

Making Lead SWC work in a Winchester 1894...

All I can tell you is what worked for me.

While there is no doubt that rounded bullets will operate smoothly in a leveraction, a well crafted SWC round can be made to function as well.

Don't be too quick to quit. You may miss a chance to learn something along the way. Good luck with your experimentation.

Drew

 

[anglaispierre]

Drew, what brand and weight of SWC do you use. I am very limited in my choice here in Normandy.

 

[Sebago Son]

SWC .44 Bullets in a Lever Gun.

I use a hard cast Lyman 429421. This is a hand cast 250 grn bullet. What are you using? Do you have taper- or roll-crimp dies? Can you get a snapshot of one of your loaded rounds?

I'd like to help if I can...

Drew

 

[target tech]

The Winchester model 94 was never designed as a pistol caliber action. It was designed to feed rifle caliber cartriges. It is just the nature of the beast. You want to shoot pistol caliber bullets, and not have to fidget with them, buy a 92 replica.

 

[anglaispierre]

I use a hard cast Lyman 429421. This is a hand cast 250 grn bullet. What are you using? Do you have taper- or roll-crimp dies? Can you get a snapshot of one of your loaded rounds?

I'd like to help if I can...

Drew

I use Balleurope 4445BB429B 240 Gr. That's what the shop sells. I attach a photo of a reloaded SWC and one reloaded with a Sierra 250 Gr FPJ 8615. I use a standard RCBS seating/crimping die with a roll taper.

As a matter of interest, the circle round the FPJ about a third of the way down shows the depth of seating of that bullet. I can just to say feel a slight ridge. The Lyman Reloading Handbook refers to bright rings that can appear near the case head that warns that case separation is likely to occur. I don't think that is the case here, and I don't think there is a safety issue. In fact I only ever reloaded once with the FPJ, so the case had only been fired once. All other 44 Mags reloaded with that one showed a similar ridge, but it is less noticeable with 444 Marlin cartridges reloaded with the same bullets. None of the SWCs have this.

There is also a photo of one of the lead shavings (on the tip of a cotton bud) found in the receiver after loading one of the reluctant cartridges.

 

[Sebago Son]

Yes, I'm sure that the exposed lead shoulder of your SWC is contributing to the feeding problem.

When I get home to my loading bench early tomorrow I'll take a snapshot of a similar slug and how I configured the crimp to actually roll over the exposed lead shoulder and prevent it from causing a hang up.

I've used this method to solve feeding problems of this nature with both .44 Magnum and .357 Magnum lever action rifles.

Drew