Winchester blues

[duman444]

So myself and my two brothers started on a new deer lease in Central Texas, this last year. Took over for some slob hunters and immediately started treating the place with care. Fixing not just deer lease things, but helping the owner with fences, clearing land, etc.

Fast forward to end of May, time to fill feeders. My 2 brothers are both very much into spring Turkey hunting, to me its Blah. So they were planning on making a full weekend of filling feeders and Turkey hunting. Not for me, so I just contributed my money for corn and protein and will work the next trip.

Brothers come home and call me to say land owner had cleared her Dads house of guns as he is in a retirement home and not coming out. After getting the rest of the guns to their family, they ended up with 3 guns that they gave my brothers and myself. Since I was not there to claim, I got the leftover.

Brother one got a 1946 Winchester 94 flatband in 30 WCF (30-30)
Brother two got a 1928 Winchester 1897 in 12 gauge with 30" full choke.
I got a ? year Hopkins and Allen, (no Model number anywhere) break open 16 gauge with a 32" Weird choke ??? barrel. Barrel mikes at .684 and an open choke 16 gauge is supposed to be .665. Its almost large enough to be an extra full 12 gauge.

All guns were in Semi rough shape, lots of surface rust and little finish.
Cleaned them up and picture is attached. The 30-30 and 1897 have been shot since and both function perfectly. Not sure of the 16 gauge with modern ammo, so waiting on some low pressure, 2 9/16 loads to test it.

All guns including the H&A are very much appreciated. You do nice thing and people will do nice things back!

 

[smithra_66]

He who is not present gets the shortest stick.

Still better than nothing!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Very nice! Good onya for being good neighbors.

 

[Babysitr]

sounds like a good relationship, will only get better! open and respectful

 

[2152hq]

Nice of her to keep you guys in mind.

Sounds like the H&R has been 'Back-Bored'.

I can tell you that there is a maximum (suggested) bore dia size for 16ga to be BackBored to,,and that is .685d.

You can of course back-bore the bbl to a smaller dia than that,,any dia from the orig bore dia of the 16ga (.665) up to that suggested max of .685.

After that, the wad(s) of most any commercially loaded shell will simply not expand enough to give you the best efficiency.
They will still work of course and most will not notice any difference.
But the suggested max dia is one that the shotgun mechanics have come up with after much cut and try.
There is also a max dia size for all the other standard gauges.
In countrys where Gov't mandated proof laws exist, a back-bore job requires a re-proof.and they have a top spec for each gauge that they allow the bore to be cut too. Those top dia's are smaller in size than the US 'suggested' allowable max.

When back boring, the matr'l removed can be done straight through and that leaves you with a cyl bore. One with a much bigger dia than the factory spec, but a cyl bore just the same.
Remembering that Choke is the difference in the diameter spec betw the bore dia and the choke dia in .000".

So if the actual bore of the bbl is back bored to any dia betw the orig cyl dia (.665 in this case) but less than the max suggested .685,,that will leave the 'smith with some matr'l at the muzzle to cut a new choke.
That new choke can be drasticaly tighter than anything the factory orig cut depending on what you started with.

If the bore AND the choke of the H&R bbl are .684,,it's probably just a straight thru back-bore to near top spec dia.
No choke I'd guess. The chamber may have been extended to 2 3/4 if it was a short one.

One of the plus points of back-boring is that it does allow lower pressures with the same shell than a standard bore. Less wad contact with the bore is the reason I've been given. Some report higher velocities.


Back boring is done sometimes to simply clean up a pitted bore.
It's beyond simply honing the bore. It is actually reaming the bore to remove matr'l.
Sometimes done to increase the choke in the bbl and get that extra velocity they talk about.
It's still a somewhat popular bbl operation for shotgunners looking for that 'edge' in target games and water fowling.

H&R made some decent shotguns.
Dating them is difficult in most instances.
If the bbl address says
'Hopkins & Allen Manufacturing Company',,they are 1898 and before.
If it says 'Hopkins & Allen Arms Company',,it is 1899 and after.

None of the H&A firearms are later than about 1915.
At that time they thought taking on a Military contract to make (Model 1889?) Mausers for Belgium would be the ticket to wealth.
So commercial firearms production stopped all together to concentrate on the Mausers
That didn't work out at all and they went under.
(Finding one of those Belgian Mausers they did manage to produce with the front ring nicely marked 'H&A' is a rare find.)

Marlin Rockwell took the plant over as a result during WW1 and was put to use making among other things BAR bbls'
MArlin bought the assets of H&R after WW1.

 

[duman444]

Nice of her to keep you guys in mind.

Sounds like the H&R has been 'Back-Bored'.

H&R made some decent shotguns.
Dating them is difficult in most instances.
If the bbl address says
'Hopkins & Allen Manufacturing Company',,they are 1898 and before.
If it says 'Hopkins & Allen Arms Company',,it is 1899 and after.

.

Thanks 2152hq, great information. Please look at the attached pictures, where the metal of the receiver at the top, close to barrel has a hammered look. It's the same on both sides. Did it leave H&A like that or did it get boogered up later?
Also, the barrel is marked "Diadem smokeless steel" "choke bored". So assume its safe for low pressure smokeless loads, could the factory have done the "back boring" to call it choke bored?
Gun is marked H&A Manufacturing, so 1899 to 1915.

 

[2152hq]

The small dia peening on the top of the frame up close to the bbl doesn't concern me as much as the heavier hammering & punch work that is on the left side right where the standing breach meets the frame.

Neither was there when the gun left the factory.

The hammer work on the side was done to 'tighten up' the action which was at one time loose when it was closed and locked,,the bbl wiggled even though the gun was closed and locked.

That hammer work on the side(s) pushes in on the thin portion of the frame and makes it so the bbl can not close quite as far as it once did when it was loose.
The effect is that the locking bolt would then fit tight against the locking shoulder surface,,,,effect is the gun is tightened up.
Same effect as if the locking shoulder surface or the locking bolt itself had been built up a few .ooo" and then refitted.

The main drawback is that the breech is often a few .000 off face as the bbl is held open that amt by the hammering work.
The gun looks like the breech is off face a bit but it may just be the shadow in the pic.

These aren't Holland&Hollands,,so a bit of play is to be expected in them. But wildly off face is a headspace issue. Many guns have it and are still in use. Stick with low pressure loads in the 100+ y/o gun.

Take a look at the firing pin. Extended (fired position) it should be betw .040 and .050 protrusion. Though they will fire fine even down to .030 protrusion from the frame face.

The orig bbl was IMO a standard 12ga bore w/most likely a Full choke. Nothing out of the ordinary.
A back-bore job probably came much later in it's life and done for unkn reason(s) & persons at this point.

No specialty machinery is needed to do the work if you like a lot of excercise. Standard reamers or even expandable reamers on extensions powered by a bit-brace can get you there.
So more than a few guns have had bore work done in some ones garage or basement that lacks a lathe of suitable size or a person that knows how to run it.

 

[diyj98]

Backboring normally isn't done in the choke area. The bore is opened up behind the choke with backboring. The barrel could have had pits polished out, but I'm guessing that's just the way it was manufactured.

 

[gwpercle]

ATTABOY ! ... To all three of you !

Being nice to others is rewarding ... my Mom always said , "in this life you reap what you sow ."
I like your shotgun , it's cool !
I have one in 410 but it isn't back bored ...
Don't remove the back boring , see how it shoots ... you might be surprised .
Gary

 

[duman444]

Good information

Thanks again 2152hq. The barrel is off breech face by .008. You can see light
through gap when closed. Just a little larger than a cylinder gap on a Taurus Barrel has a tiny bit of play/wiggle. The firing pin comes out about .042. Put a 4 inch hardwood dowel in barrel and when fired it launched it up almost enough to clear the 32" length.

If I ever shoot it I will wait for the low pressure 2 9/16" 16 gauge to come back into stock.