Winchester GURU

[1943]

I stumbled upon a Model 54 winchester 30 govt 06 this week and it called my name. Now here is the question. This rifle is in fine condition and appears to be factory original.
Butt this thing looks more like a M70. The bolt has M 70 style safety. Most 54s that I have seen had a mauser style safety It has a schanable fore end 22 line per in checkering, nickle steel barrel. the bottom of the bolt has the flat spot like a M54, but has a bolt handle that is copy of My pre 64 M70. It is also factory drilled and tapped for a scope,, but the plug screws are still intact. It also has a winchester red rubber recoil pad that has a 1922 patent date
From what i read from the proof house the serial number range is 1 to 50127. It also indicates that the last serial numbers were made in 1942.
The serial number of the newly acquired relic is 5133x. could this have been mfgd. in 1943. The reason Im asking if it is I have finally found a birth year gun. Yep I' m that old

_________
```Terry``

 

[feralmerril]

Terry, I have this winchester model 70 hornet. Actualy it`s a K hornet, someone got to it before I bought it. The serial # is 8039. Yet the date under the barrel says 1935! Winchester will tell you they didnt build the first model 70s untill 1937. Well, I think this is a leftover barrel from the model 54`s they had in stock.
Human beings write books. They arent always right. Yet because they are published, we tend to view them and the book as absolute. Sometimes they can be as wrong as me.

 

[Sprefix]

I'm far from a guru, but my first 54 in .30 Gov't 06 is sounding like the spitting image of what you have. I believe the Schnabel forend was on the lightweight models(featherweight). As Feral said, I may be wrong also. I'm dying for some pics.

 

[Bruce51]

My only Winchester resource is an old edition of Winchester by Willamson first printed in 1952.

The model 54 is listed as being discontinued in 1936 at 50,145 units.
The model 70 was introduced in 1937.
There is no picture in the book of the gun that you have mentioned.

Your serial at 5133x seems to fit with the time after the 54 was discontinued.

The gun may be something made after the 54 was officially dropped for the model 70.

It would be interesting to get the real story on this gun's history.

Bruce

 

[2152hq]

I've seen several M70 22 hornet bbls that still had remnents of the old M54 marking slightly visible under the M70 roll marking.
I've been told that NOS M54 bbl in 22 Hornet were used at the factory for the M70 after the M54 was discontinued by polishing the old markings off, re-rollmarking for the M70 and rebluing.
Makes sense,,nothing got tossed back then.

Barrels units were date stamped when produced, not when the rifle was assembled. So an early dated bbl can show up on a late production gun (by ser#).

Certain calibers and barrel configurations that were slow sellers show up that way too sometimes.

 

[30-30remchester]

I have met a few very talented men who converted a few model 54's with model 70 parts. Would really like to see some photo's of this rifle.

 

[1943]

 

[1943]

oops

I pushed the button to quickly. sorry about being so long getting the pics posted.

 

[1943]

barrel markings

__________
~~~Terry~~

 

[5BeansintheWheel]

Interesting rifle for sure. Where is Roger Rule when you need him? In the model 54 section of his book The Riflemans Rifle he gives a total of 50,024 standard rifles manufactured from 1925 through 1941. Now, don't all excited and what not ...there were another 2,005 rifles produced as specials in this time frame. If I read his table correctly, 34 were made in 1941.

It could have been cobbled together by a gunsmith some where or a parts clean up gun in the late 1940's or 50's. Or possibly something totally different.

 

[30-30remchester]

Wow nice interesting rifle. I have studied model 54's and 70's for decades and havent seen one like this before. It has parts from both models. Factory? I doubt it, but very interesting. Lastly I doubt this rifle was factory drilled rear bridge scope mounting holes. The first time I can find that Winchester drilled the rear bridge was @1947.

 

[1943]

drilled and tapped rear mount

30-30
here is what the

rear bridge looks like

___________
~~~Terry~~

 

[30-30remchester]

I cant state enough what a neat rifle you have, but it is a head scratcher. I believe a talented gunsmith put this gun together. Most parts are interchangable. The rear bridge I believe, from my 40 plus years of collecting these things, was drilled after it left the factory. The fact the reciever still has the clip loading lips gives evidence of this. I have never seen an original early reciever with clip slots that was factory drilled and tapped. I have about every book and article written about these rifles and nowhere is a photo or documentation of such. Not trying to be disheartening, just imformative. How I would like to find out I am wrong, but from all my research, I am not.

 

[30-30remchester]

1943, A thought just crossed my mind. Can we get a photo of the underside of your gun? If it has the model 54 bottom metal I would guess that the previous owner simply changed the bolt and tapped the rear bridge so a scope could be mounted. If this is truly a model 54, they didnt lend themselves to easy scope mounting. Other than drilling the rear bridge, the bolt handle had to be altered and the safety changed. It might have just been easier to buy a model 70 bolt. mill the flat on the bottom of the bolt, common to model 54's and tap it for scope bases. Just brainstorming.

 

[2152hq]

A Model 54 that late should have an 'A' suffix to the ser#.
The safety is neither a 54 (Mauser type) nor a pre-war M70 I don't believe.
A M70 22Hornet bolt uses a cartridge 'pusher' on the bottom of the bolt to shove the round from the mag forward and up so the bolt can grab it. I'm not entirely sure,,but I don't think the M54 used anything like that,,just a standard function bolt configuaration.
Though they did intro a speed lock and short throw with the Hornet round in the 54.

The M70 uses the bolt handle as a safety lug notched into the receiver,,the 54 doesn't. Something else to look for.

Sure is an interesting piece!

 

[30-30remchester]

A Model 54 that late should have an 'A' suffix to the ser#.
The safety is neither a 54 (Mauser type) nor a pre-war M70 I don't believe.
A M70 22Hornet bolt uses a cartridge 'pusher' on the bottom of the bolt to shove the round from the mag forward and up so the bolt can grab it. I'm not entirely sure,,but I don't think the M54 used anything like that,,just a standard function bolt configuaration.
Though they did intro a speed lock and short throw with the Hornet round in the 54.

The M70 uses the bolt handle as a safety lug notched into the receiver,,the 54 doesn't. Something else to look for.

Sure is an interesting piece!

Good catch there on the bolt handle safety lug, however the model 54 did use the bolt lug as an additional safety, it is just inletted deeper in the reciever and stock so it is not so visable. The reciever is obviously a model 54. If you will look closely at the last photo you will see on the left side of the reciever there is no bolt release cut made into the reciever as the model 70 had. The stock is a model 54, the barrel is a model 54, the action is a model 54, I dont know about the bottom metal yet, and the bolt is a post 1949 model 70 bolt. The safety is a type III with a slight modification from what I can see on the photos. Again this is one of the most interesting guns that has appeared in these forums for some time now. I would kill to get my hands on this for a closer inspection.

 

[1943]

bottem end pics

I didnt think this thing would draw this much interest. It was at a local gun shop and I can not resist unusual pieces.
floor plate pic

__________
~~Terry~~

 

[1943]

serial #

And the serial # on the receiver and the bolt match, and yes it has an "A" suffex

___________
~~~Terry~~

 

[30-30remchester]

Definately a model 54, with the A in the serial number and the bottom metal is off a 54. With the bolt serial numbered to the gun I figured that the firing pin - safety mechanism had been changed. However I tried this and the model 70 firing pin will not insert into a model 54 bolt without the model 54 being bored out. Not a difficult problem but then that dang model 70 bolt handle is still the fly in the ointment. ORIGINAL model 70's and I believe model 54's had a bolt handle milled from the same billet of steel as the bolt as a one piece unit. Could a gunsmith have aquired an aftermarket model 70 bolt handle and welded it to a model 54 bolt after milling off the original 54 bolt handle?

 

[1943]

bolt handle safety notch

the safety notch ia almost identical to my 1961 m70, also the bolt handle shows no sign of not being original.

___________
~~~Terry~~~

 

[30-30remchester]

I have ran out of "what if's" on this gun. I know both Winchester and Colt had reputations of using up everthing in their shops. Winchester put model 1895 barrels on their model 1894's. Colt used cylinders from their discontinued double action revolver model on their single action revolver. Could Winchester been doing a "cleanup" of old parts on this particular rifle? I dont think we will ever know.

 

[1943]

serial number date

Thanks all for all your knowledge and ideas on the M54. And 30-30Remchester if I happen to get to Colorada in the near future I would like for you to inspect this rifle. You can P.M. me what area or town that you reside in.
The one question that I still have is what year that S/N 5133xA left New Haven or is there no way to find out? Any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
_______
~Terry~

 

[2152hq]

I talked to a friend of mine last evening and mentioned this rifle. He's alot more knowledgeable about M70's than I'll ever be.

This is what he told me,,

Winchester used M70 bolt parts including the bolt body to repair M54's sent to them as the supply of M54 parts was depleted.
He says there's a mention of it in Rule's (sp?) M70 book in the M54 section. The 'new' bolt would then be #'d to the rifle with the same electric spark pen (I guess that's what they would call it) that they still used to # the M70 bolts.

The 70 bolt would require a slight deepening of the safety notch, but that would be part of the upgrade.
M54 bolt parts can be used in a M70 bolt body with some simple (his words!) mod to the body. Remchester found that out by comparing the two.

Many early M54's were sent in later to W for speed lock and gas port mod updates,,and further repairs were done when possible and for as long as possible with the M70 parts.
>


Just thought I'd pass that along. I've personally never worked on a 54, just a few M70's over the years.
Maybe it's just a very late rifle made for someone and they only had those M70 bolt parts available to build. Perhaps the D&T'd rear bridge was done at the same time.
Like the man sez,,we'll probably never really know.

Very nice rifle. Beautiful condition

 

[30-30remchester]

2152hq, your friend is most probably correct. It has been years since I gave Rule's book a complete reading. My last post was going to be my last post on this subject as I had ran out of useful "guesses". In the middle of the night I awoke with the same conclusion. I dont know if my memory finally recalled my old research or I thunk it up on my own, but I came up with the same conclusion. Since the bolt in question was built between 1949 and 1952, I assumed the previous owner either lost his bolt or damaged it and sent it to Winchester for a replacement bolt. Assuming there were no model 54 bolts left in stock, a model 70 bolt was used and electic penciled serial numbered added. "1943", I reread Roger Rules book on the model 70. This is THE bible on models 70's and 54's. According to production records, 50,024 model 54's were built between 1925 and 1941. Winchester also produced an additional 2,005 rifles ending with serial number 52,029 Winchester called these additional 54's "special" without explination as to what was special.. Thus it would make sense to me that this rifle was very likely produced in 1941 as your serial number is higher than the last regular serial numbered gun built in 1941. Now if you arent completely confused by this you are way smarter than I.

 

[5BeansintheWheel]

2152hq, your friend is most probably correct. It has been years since I gave Rule's book a complete reading. My last post was going to be my last post on this subject as I had ran out of useful "guesses". In the middle of the night I awoke with the same conclusion. I dont know if my memory finally recalled my old research or I thunk it up on my own, but I came up with the same conclusion. Since the bolt in question was built between 1949 and 1952, I assumed the previous owner either lost his bolt or damaged it and sent it to Winchester for a replacement bolt. Assuming there were no model 54 bolts left in stock, a model 70 bolt was used and electic penciled serial numbered added. "1943", I reread Roger Rules book on the model 70. This is THE bible on models 70's and 54's. According to production records, 50,024 model 54's were built between 1925 and 1941. Winchester also produced an additional 2,005 rifles ending with serial number 52,029 Winchester called these additional 54's "special" without explination as to what was special.. Thus it would make sense to me that this rifle was very likely produced in 1941 as your serial number is higher than the last regular serial numbered gun built in 1941. Now if you arent completely confused by this you are way smarter than I.

I guess no one read post number 10 in this thread.

 

[30-30remchester]

I guess no one read post number 10 in this thread.

I have not only slept since your first post but have slept twice. My memory aint what it used to be (and it used to be terrible).