This thread is dear to me. I have 2 mdl. 12's....A 20 ga. from 1957 and my Dad's 12 ga. 2 bbl. set(32" solid rib/27" cyl.bore) that he gave me in 1978. I also have a near perfect 1897 with a 32" bbl.. These old guns are dear to me and I hunt with all of them. As far as a 12 or 97 blowing open....doesn't happen.
Winchester Model 12
- Thread starter rchall
- Start date
Texas Star
US Veteran
How good are the repro M-12's from Miroku? Both Browning and Winchester have imported them under their names. One that I saw was quite nice, a higher grade gun with some engraving and very nice wood. It was a 20 ga.
They are of high quality and should last as long as the older ones. My BIL has had one in 20 ga. for years.
old&slow
Member
Sorry, I don't know much about the Winchester model 12. Just that they always seemed to fit me just right and pointed great.
My grandfather use to tell me about his 16 ga. model 12 with a 30 inch full barrel that he swore was the tightest shooting, could kill a squirrel in the next county ,, best shotgun ever made.
Last year I took the 16 ga. model 12 , 28 inch barrel full choke that my father gave me to a local shoot. I think my grandfather may have been right. With what appears to be a 20 ga frame it has really nice lines, pattern seemed quite tight, and shot great.
Sweet little firearm , although the full choke is a bit tight for most of the stuff I do.
My grandfather use to tell me about his 16 ga. model 12 with a 30 inch full barrel that he swore was the tightest shooting, could kill a squirrel in the next county ,, best shotgun ever made.
Last year I took the 16 ga. model 12 , 28 inch barrel full choke that my father gave me to a local shoot. I think my grandfather may have been right. With what appears to be a 20 ga frame it has really nice lines, pattern seemed quite tight, and shot great.
Sweet little firearm , although the full choke is a bit tight for most of the stuff I do.
gmiller0737
Member
I also Own 2 Winchester Model 12's a Early 20 Ga. 1913 Production & a 50's Vintage 12 Ga 3" Marked For Super x & Super Speed,Plus a Browning Model 12 in 28 ga & A Winchester Model 42 .410, I haven't used the Older 20 much But The 3" I hunted with a fair amount & it throws 3" #1 Buckshot Really Well,With a Model 12 you can just feel the Quality when you use it,I also have a couple of Remington 870's & They are good quality well proven guns but they just don't feel like a Model 12
Mod 12s that have seen lots of use, like Trap shooting, can get worn
to the point of blowing open, if that's the proper term. The rear of the
bolt locks into a recess in the receiver and with lots of wear the
amount of contact between bolt and receiver can get less and less.
It happened to a guy I shot with and he had to get his gun completely
rebuilt. The condition of the recoil shoulder in the receiver is one
indication of wear.
to the point of blowing open, if that's the proper term. The rear of the
bolt locks into a recess in the receiver and with lots of wear the
amount of contact between bolt and receiver can get less and less.
It happened to a guy I shot with and he had to get his gun completely
rebuilt. The condition of the recoil shoulder in the receiver is one
indication of wear.
I knew better than to open this thread. Now I'll be looking at M12s when I'm at a show, but then I usually look at a couple anyway. Maybe it's time I got one, heck they're cheaper than most Model 10 S&Ws.
I'm an Amatuer Expert. In here, I'm an amatuer, after listening to most guys behind a gun counter, I feel like an expert.
When someone who knows nothing about guns, asks me if I know anything about guns, I'd say, "I know a lot about guns."
In here, I know a little about guns. (but I'm always learning.)
I'm an Amatuer Expert. In here, I'm an amatuer, after listening to most guys behind a gun counter, I feel like an expert.
When someone who knows nothing about guns, asks me if I know anything about guns, I'd say, "I know a lot about guns."
In here, I know a little about guns. (but I'm always learning.)
You sound a lot like me. I know a little bit about a lot of things, but I don't know a whole lot about anything. Model 12s have been my shotgun of choice my whole life. I have a late 1963 model 20 guage and an early 1940s war horse. It's a WWll army riot gun that's been sporterized on every corner. I have had this shotgun since 1954 and gave $55.00 for it at Motgomery Wards.
in8kaos
Member
1939 model 97 Winchester 12 ga
Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.
Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.
Skeetr57
Member
The model 12 was introduced in 20 gauge, chambered for 2 1/2" shells and with 25" barrel in all chokes. The 12 gauge came along a couple of years later. I don't recall when the 16 gauge was introduced, but it originally had 2 9/16" chambers. Later the guns were made in 28 ga and 12 ga 3" versions. All except the 12 gauges were built on the 20 ga frame. I have owned all gauges and chamber lengths over the years, and still have and still have an early 20gauge, several 12's, including a 3", and a 20 ga Browning made gun. The Browning made gun was prone to jamming when operated rapidly until I replaced the trigger/hammer group with an original Winchester part. Now it works just fine. The early 29 gauge chambers can be opened out to 2 3/4" easily but the early 16 ga guns also require lengthening the ejector port a bit for use with all brands of shells. In some areas where trap shooting has been popular, it is difficult to find good original 12 gauge, long barrel guns in original condition because they were so popular at that sport. My early 20 gauge gun is the only one that I was ever able to down 5 wild quail on a covey rise with.
wingnuut
Member
Since reading this about the m12 ,I remembered my dad had one I never shot it but dug it out of the safe , the barrel says mod 12 , 3inch ,the bolt is jeweled , any idea how old it might be ?
Mod 12s are pretty easy to date. The serial number is the key.
Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.
Look at the barrel and see if it is marked as to the choke.
If the barrel is choke marked it means the poly choke was
added after the gun left the factory. Guns that came with
a poly choke as original equipment had no choke marking
on the barrel.
in8kaos
Member
Thank you Alwslate!
dickk
Member
Great thread. all most a book
Big Cholla
Member
In my four years working in a large volume gunsmithing operation while attending college, we tuned and worked on many Win. M. 12s. They were mostly 12 ga. and about 30 to 40% were 20s and 16s. I don't recall ever seeing a 28 ga. We did have the occasional 12 ga. "Duck/Goose" gun that exhibited the wear fault of the action coming open on its own after firing. The cause was the extreme battering the high base duck/goose loads were giving to the locking lug recess in the frame by the bolt lockup. The solution was to have some delicate weld buildup done and then remachine the recess. Roy Dunlap or one of his students under his supervision usually did that for the owner of my shop. I do not ever remember ever seeing that condition exist in M 12s that were upland bird field guns. They just weren't subject to that continual extreme battering by the high base duck/goose loads. And, I never even heard of the possibility of that locking recess getting battered larger in any of the smaller calibers.
An aside: My Dad purchased a year old M 12/20ga. the week I was born in 1939. It was for me, but of course he used it until I started field hunting with him at the age of 11 or 12. He then bought a 16 ga. for himself. I watched his success with that 16 ga. on Quail and Chuckar and wanted to upgrade. Together we bought me a 16 ga. in 28" barrel with a modified choke. I wanted to shoot more than he wanted to buy 16 ga. ammo, so that led to me starting to reload 16 ga. shotshells at the age of 16. I have been reloading ever since. I still have the M12/20 ga. The stocks have been refinished a couple of times and I reblued the entire metal work just before leaving the Gunshop. .....
An aside: My Dad purchased a year old M 12/20ga. the week I was born in 1939. It was for me, but of course he used it until I started field hunting with him at the age of 11 or 12. He then bought a 16 ga. for himself. I watched his success with that 16 ga. on Quail and Chuckar and wanted to upgrade. Together we bought me a 16 ga. in 28" barrel with a modified choke. I wanted to shoot more than he wanted to buy 16 ga. ammo, so that led to me starting to reload 16 ga. shotshells at the age of 16. I have been reloading ever since. I still have the M12/20 ga. The stocks have been refinished a couple of times and I reblued the entire metal work just before leaving the Gunshop. .....
Maddog 521
Member
Now that was some very good reading, but I do have a question.
What "House Brands" did Winchester make in the Model 12? I'm sure there were some but I can't find them when doing my search.
What "House Brands" did Winchester make in the Model 12? I'm sure there were some but I can't find them when doing my search.
hangnoose
Member
MDL 12'S
As stated there is no shortage of mdl 12"experts". I would feel safe to say that the serious collectors own the vast majority of them, especially the more valuable ones. The ones we see "flooding the market", have likely been picked over already, but people pass & good ones can pop up. I'm thinking you MIGHT have a heavy duck model, in a not as sought after gauge. No pics, grade/mdl unknown, I wouldn't venture a guess as to the value. I think they are a great example of US craftsmanship from days long gone, & hunt well to boot. As a NON mdl 12 expert, I think the price listed is either too high for the gauge, or too low if it happens to be in a more collectable grade/mdl/condition. ANY attempts to modify/alter/improve it will lower the value. DO MORE HOMEWORK, a Winchester mdl 12 forum would be a good start. Hope this helped & good luck.
As stated there is no shortage of mdl 12"experts". I would feel safe to say that the serious collectors own the vast majority of them, especially the more valuable ones. The ones we see "flooding the market", have likely been picked over already, but people pass & good ones can pop up. I'm thinking you MIGHT have a heavy duck model, in a not as sought after gauge. No pics, grade/mdl unknown, I wouldn't venture a guess as to the value. I think they are a great example of US craftsmanship from days long gone, & hunt well to boot. As a NON mdl 12 expert, I think the price listed is either too high for the gauge, or too low if it happens to be in a more collectable grade/mdl/condition. ANY attempts to modify/alter/improve it will lower the value. DO MORE HOMEWORK, a Winchester mdl 12 forum would be a good start. Hope this helped & good luck.
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Big Cholla
Member
M 12 House brands?
I can't think of any by Winchester. Of course FN of Belgium cloned the M 12 in their Browning BPS. If anything, FN made it just a little more heavy duty. I had one in 12 ga., 30" bbl. with changeable chokes. I lived 20 miles NE of Denver on the point of a low hill directly in the flyway for Geese into a large lake. The Geese were normally too high when the clouds were high, but when the clouds were right on the deck the Geese flew under them sometimes within the 10+ yd. range of my 'Goose' gun. I got several on those days. ........
I can't think of any by Winchester. Of course FN of Belgium cloned the M 12 in their Browning BPS. If anything, FN made it just a little more heavy duty. I had one in 12 ga., 30" bbl. with changeable chokes. I lived 20 miles NE of Denver on the point of a low hill directly in the flyway for Geese into a large lake. The Geese were normally too high when the clouds were high, but when the clouds were right on the deck the Geese flew under them sometimes within the 10+ yd. range of my 'Goose' gun. I got several on those days. ........
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hangnoose
Member
AW, THAT'S NUTHIN.
I TELL YOU WHAT, back on 12/7 1941 at Pearl, me and my buddy Audie was havin a cold one when out of the skies came a mess of Jap Zeroes. Well I just happened to have my m12 xtree long bbl & some handloads, so's I jess laid that barrel on Murph's shoulder & began dropping them zeroes like crazy. If I'm lyin I'm dyin. Feel free to move this post to the tall tales section.
I TELL YOU WHAT, back on 12/7 1941 at Pearl, me and my buddy Audie was havin a cold one when out of the skies came a mess of Jap Zeroes. Well I just happened to have my m12 xtree long bbl & some handloads, so's I jess laid that barrel on Murph's shoulder & began dropping them zeroes like crazy. If I'm lyin I'm dyin. Feel free to move this post to the tall tales section.
I'm in SE Ohio, good m12s can be had for $350 in 16&12 gauge.
The bulk of these in this area are 30" FC, you will find a few 28"
any choke other than full is scarce. 20s bring more and 28s are
Hi dollar. 32" & 34" and ribs bring premium. Guns with Cutts or
Poly Chokes are docked. 97s have jumped in price because of
Cow Boy Games. They are bringing more than M-12s. You can
have the 16 checked, I have never run across a sleeved 16g,
Turkey shooters are more into 12 gauge.
The bulk of these in this area are 30" FC, you will find a few 28"
any choke other than full is scarce. 20s bring more and 28s are
Hi dollar. 32" & 34" and ribs bring premium. Guns with Cutts or
Poly Chokes are docked. 97s have jumped in price because of
Cow Boy Games. They are bringing more than M-12s. You can
have the 16 checked, I have never run across a sleeved 16g,
Turkey shooters are more into 12 gauge.
model70hunter
Member
I was so excited about a M-12 thread until I looked at the date. I have a 16 ga M-12 and some in 12 ga.
I have always kept one eye open for 16 ga ammo. I have found it at yard sales and even at a Wmart close out. You buy it when you find it. I have some paper cat'tridges that have age on them but go bang. Found them in a rental house. The guy that lived/owned the home was there for 50 some years.
When the bolt drops down from wear it goes out of battery and will not fire. Know all about that one. that was the problem with my first M-12. Had Simmons in fix it for me. Ive owned 30 or so since.
Rem 870's are nice shotguns. The W-12 is a great gun regardless of type.
Remember when your uncle had a 6 cylinder Ford/Chevrolet, 3 on the tree and hand crank windows? It was a durable and dependable auto.
Lets say the town Dr pulled up next to you in his big Caddy, hit the button to roll up the windows and zoomed on down the road leaving you in the dust. The 3 on the tree car is the dependable 870, the well made Caddy zooming away is the Win M-12.
The 16 is made on a 20 ga frame. nice and light.
On all other pump guns you will find the 16 is made on a 12 ga frame, makes it unweildly and heavy.
Old time turkey hunters loved the 16.
The 3" 20 ga tried to pull the life support plug on the 16 but its too tough to go.
If you are suave and cool you have a M-12. If you are Bogey cool you have a 16 ga.
I have always kept one eye open for 16 ga ammo. I have found it at yard sales and even at a Wmart close out. You buy it when you find it. I have some paper cat'tridges that have age on them but go bang. Found them in a rental house. The guy that lived/owned the home was there for 50 some years.
When the bolt drops down from wear it goes out of battery and will not fire. Know all about that one. that was the problem with my first M-12. Had Simmons in fix it for me. Ive owned 30 or so since.
Rem 870's are nice shotguns. The W-12 is a great gun regardless of type.
Remember when your uncle had a 6 cylinder Ford/Chevrolet, 3 on the tree and hand crank windows? It was a durable and dependable auto.
Lets say the town Dr pulled up next to you in his big Caddy, hit the button to roll up the windows and zoomed on down the road leaving you in the dust. The 3 on the tree car is the dependable 870, the well made Caddy zooming away is the Win M-12.
The 16 is made on a 20 ga frame. nice and light.
On all other pump guns you will find the 16 is made on a 12 ga frame, makes it unweildly and heavy.
Old time turkey hunters loved the 16.
The 3" 20 ga tried to pull the life support plug on the 16 but its too tough to go.
If you are suave and cool you have a M-12. If you are Bogey cool you have a 16 ga.
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silentflyer
Member
Another fine firearm which had the handy work of John M. Browning in it's design, sort of the grandson of the 1897 Winchester.
I have a M-12 12ga with vent rib and Cutts. Been reblued, refinished and it looks and shoots like new. Problem my Surgeon after my last shoulder surgery said no more shotguns or HP rifles. Guess the M-12 has to go but the Pre 64 M-70 I can't bring myself to part with.
model70hunter
Member
Dang, sorry. I too have some of both models. I know a guy who's rotator cuff went bad, he learned to shoot left handed. Is that possible?
I know it's blasphemy but adding recoil reducers can take 300 WBY mag recoil down to 243 levels.
I just built an AR platform hunting rifle, 6.5 Grendel with bull bbl. To be truthful I have not yet felt it recoil. The weight and smaller cartridge seems to work well.
What is your M-70? Mine are standard 270's. I sold all the others when I retired.
I think it would be time to find a new surgeon. I couldn't imagine giving up on my model 12's or 70's. We have been through too much together to part ways. Just last week I slid down an ice covered ridge in pursuit of an elk, while carrying my old model 70. I gave it a few more character marks that day. A good alternative might be a nice Winchester model 42 410.
Big Cholla
Member
Advertised today on one of the 'sell anything with a free ad websites' is a LV located 1954 Model 12, 30" vent rib full choked barrel. The one picture makes it look pristine. It should be for the $1700 firm price. .......
Interesting that this thread came back to life...anyone who doesn't believe the Model 12 can blow itself open when fired may not be quite the "expert" they think they are. Once I got seriously interested in the Model 12 and buying/collecting I set out to not just learn a little about it, I am the type person that has to know all I can find. One of the problems I faced was the personal disbelief I had that this could happen. I grew up hanging out at the local rod and gun club and in the late seventies there were a lot of old timers around from the time when the model 12 was king. I just remembered what they all repeated and it stuck in my head..."you cant wear a model 12 out, the more you shoot them the tighter they get, that's the way it was designed!!!" Those fellas never steered me wrong before, it had to be true. Another persistent fallacy was the belief that "nickel steel" used in the older guns was superior to the later alloys. Or that they "had to stop using nickle steel because it was too expensive."
I have since repaired a half dozen or so with the self opening problem. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it cant be the locking recess or the bolt. I will say that none of the ones I repaired had that as the underlying cause. No, without exception, all of mine had the lug worn at the end of the action bar...just like Mr. Dunlap said. I will also say that this wear was not a matter of being shot a lot...it was more a matter of being shot bone dry.
Best advice I could give any owner/lover of the model 12 is to take it down and slop some kind of good quality gun grease on that little oval shaped lug and get some in the side of the bolt too. If there was ever a weak link on the model 12 this surely is it.
Remington's answer to the model 12, the 870, was always touted as "having twin action bars" in all their ads, even long after any one remembered the single bar of the model 12.
Here are three of my favorites...all 20 gauge guns. 28 gauges are rare, the few I have seen for sale all had a steam whistle on the barrel. I think it is fair to say that more high quality feather crotch and fiddleback black walnut was used to stock model 12's than any other firearm....hope you guys like these....
I have since repaired a half dozen or so with the self opening problem. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it cant be the locking recess or the bolt. I will say that none of the ones I repaired had that as the underlying cause. No, without exception, all of mine had the lug worn at the end of the action bar...just like Mr. Dunlap said. I will also say that this wear was not a matter of being shot a lot...it was more a matter of being shot bone dry.
Best advice I could give any owner/lover of the model 12 is to take it down and slop some kind of good quality gun grease on that little oval shaped lug and get some in the side of the bolt too. If there was ever a weak link on the model 12 this surely is it.
Remington's answer to the model 12, the 870, was always touted as "having twin action bars" in all their ads, even long after any one remembered the single bar of the model 12.
Here are three of my favorites...all 20 gauge guns. 28 gauges are rare, the few I have seen for sale all had a steam whistle on the barrel. I think it is fair to say that more high quality feather crotch and fiddleback black walnut was used to stock model 12's than any other firearm....hope you guys like these....
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You are so right on this.
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