With a revolver do you still want to hold as high as possible? A question of grips

When I was instructing (using Model 10s, Model 64s) all double-action, I had my students place the web of their hand at the top of the grip and hold tight (I used to call it the "white-knuckle grip"). For solid double-action shooting you need to have a firm grip on your gun for the follow-up shots. You can achieve this with basic Magna grips, Pachmayrs, finger-groove grips. It is all about controlling your gun during recoil and not letting it wiggle around in your hand.

Why, yes, I still do rely on the good ol' 38 Special for defense.
 
I hold high. Never found grips that Inliked in my N frame revolvers, until I tried VZ. The grooves just guide your hand to a high hold. Love 'em!

 
You can do what you want, but given how fast and close most self defense encounters are, I am NOT going to be taking the time to get a carefully aimed SA shot with a relaxed grip.

Bill Jordan covered this a bit in No Second Place Winner. That whole section on grips was an interesting read, and stood in stark contrast to the modern-day trend of super-sticky grips.

Long story short, he thought good grips, when you grabbed 'em and squeezed 'em and yanked a gun out of a holster with 'em, should slide your hand into a decent shooting grip.
 
i always hold my revolvers high. Always have, always will. Always teach new shooters the same. Better recoil control. Especially for DA. Yes, my 29s also.
 
I also take a high hold. So much so that the large target hammers push against the web of my hand in SA. Can be annoying so they sometimes get swapped out for hammers with smaller cocking spurs (or get cut slap off on some dedicated DA revolvers.) Same hold no matter J frame or N. .44 Mag. or .22.

See S391's Post #21 with the Jerry Miculek video on revolver holds in this thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...ing/483283-tips-better-revolver-shooting.html

I don't do much speed shooting any more, but the fundamentals are the same.
 
Until I arrive here last January I'd never considered how or where I held a handgun. I held each one where it was comfortable in my hand and when I pulled the trigger -- sort of a natural feeling grip on the stocks, and having the right stocks to get that feel has ever been to the fore.

Now, with your guidance, I can't say anything has changed except that I'm aware of why I hold where I do and why it works. It's natural for me to hold high.

That became more obvious as I delved into the world of Centennial models. I have to hold high to get a sense of better leverage or torque or whatever the appropriate term is to smoothly pull that dao trigger. It is indeed all about the right stocks.

I have a large paw and can't hold 'em high with the OEM miniature galoshes that came on my 340 and 640. For that natural high hold I was thrilled the first time I put on the Karl Nill stocks made for Centennials.

Combining attributes others have mentioned, the Nill's work for me because the big wood makes the gun easy to draw, puts it in exactly the right position as I draw, and naturally sets my hand high for a perfect dao pull. Recovery for follow-on shots, even with heavy .357s, is a piece of cake.

You might have seen this before, but here's a look at the progression I went through to get it right for me.

Cheers,

Bob
 

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I believe that aiming for a high hold on a S&W revolver, and probably the others, is a mistake. There are other factors involved, and they are probably more important, and they are also maybe something you can do something about, without screwing everything else up.

First, the grips have to fit YOUR hand. Finger-groove grips don't fit everyone's hands, although Hogues and Rogers do fit MINE, at least in K, L & N. Not many others do, and, of course, YMMV.

Second, they have to assist you in not being excessively disturbed by the recoil (of some CF cartridges). FWIW, I was ready to SELL my 325PD until I tried Hogue's soft Rubber Monogrip(s?). It handled recoil better than any other grip, although Pachmayr Compac grips were almost good enough. The Hogues were a LOT lighter, and still better (for me).

Third, it would be nice if they caused the sights to be pretty much aligned in a natural hold of the revolver. In K, L & N, this seems to happen with me with Hogue, Pachmayr Presentation & Rogers. Again, YMMV.

Everything else being equal, a higher grip is better. Everything else is never equal.

P.S. Make sure you go to the link on jaymoore's post #25, and scroll down to Jerry Miculek's video. Obviously, this is someone to listen to.
 
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I believe that aiming for a high hold on a S&W revolver, and probably the others, is a mistake. There are other factors involved, and they are probably more important, and they are also maybe something you can do something about, without screwing everything else up....

....t would be nice if they caused the sights to be pretty much aligned in a natural hold of the revolver.....


All of which reminds me (as well as 75Vette' observations during last weekend's match) that the exception to my Post above is the scoped 629 below which currently gets a low hold with the firing hand. The support hand goes on the front of the scope bell.... So maybe it averages out?

2016-07-23%20002_zpstopncmqp.jpg


Older photo:

629JSM2_zpsmmnnt0gk.jpeg

Think I was holding higher back in March, but the lower hold seems to help with trigger release.
 
All of which reminds me (as well as 75Vette' observations during last weekend's match) that the exception to my Post above is the scoped 629 below which currently gets a low hold with the firing hand. The support hand goes on the front of the scope bell.... So maybe it averages out?

2016-07-23%20002_zpstopncmqp.jpg


Older photo:

629JSM2_zpsmmnnt0gk.jpeg

Think I was holding higher back in March, but the lower hold seems to help with trigger release.

I like that mount where did you get it?
 
Two mounts: Base is probably Weigand, riser is Ken Light. Rings are "temporary" Millets. Surprised they've held up this long as the clamp screws are severely stressed!
 
jaymore, do you go through very many jacket sleeves from muzzle-blast? I have shot a few rounds of Hunter Pistol Silhouette (many years ago), and wish there was match near that I could still shoot. It was fun. I have a 29-3 with the 4 position front sight that would be great for that match with a mid range 44 mag load.
 
Plus 1 for holding high on a revolver like Jerry Miculek. Also finger groves are useless for me too. On a pistol my off hand index finger is on the front of the trigger guard. NOT however on a revolver. On my Walther PPQ my grip is very high and almost interferes with the slide release, on my Sig 210 it does interfere with the slide release and is lower. My point each pistol/revolver I own requires a different grip. Something to get use to!
 
jaymore, do you go through very many jacket sleeves from muzzle-blast? I have shot a few rounds of Hunter Pistol Silhouette (many years ago), and wish there was match near that I could still shoot. It was fun. I have a 29-3 with the 4 position front sight that would be great for that match with a mid range 44 mag load.

No sleeves or gloves needed with this particular revolver. Even though my forearm is about even with the muzzle I have yet to even feel a breeze up there. The cylinder gap does make a breeze, however it isn't prone to spitting. The BB standing champ uses an arm guard, but his high rise scoped TC in .300 Blackout has a muzzle brake!

BTW, my "mid range" 100 yard .44 load has been good out to 200m. Dead soft Speer LSWC (with extra lube) over a case full of either RL7 or IMR4198. The AFS on the 10 5/8" barrel (revolver #2) has sufficient travel to shoot those slow loads.
 
For fast DA shooting, I like a grip that covers the backstrap, and places the "curve of the tang", so to speak, a little lower. While it might result in a little more muzzle rise than a super high hold, it gives me a better angle on the trigger for smooth DA work, and reduces the bruised middle finger I get with heavy kickers. I also have sausage sized fingers (my size 21 ring is tight). I have seen a lot of DA shooter with really high holds tend to pull their shots low due to the finger / trigger angle, especially with magna style grips. A straight pull to the rear is important to good DA shooting, though in a situation measured in feet, it really doesn't matter as much.

Like other have said though, you really have to experiment to find the grips that fit you, and your style of shooting.

Larry
 
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Here's what I consider a High Hold as used by another LH shooter.

0c777925-60bd-47b0-a193-d2bff72b50fd_zpsdzgcrd4e.jpg


I think the limitation here is consistency in hand placement. Seems rather easier to me to have small changes go unnoticed, which may lead to "odd" high or low rounds. Would also expect the revolver to naturally hit higher than with a high hold. Possibly to the point that the rear sight could bottom out and rounds would still go high, depending on bullet weight.
 
The answer really is "it depends".

Sure, moving your hand up as high as possible without interfering will put the axis of the bore lower in your hand and more in line with your arm. Theoretically that will reduce muzzle rise and speed the follow up on the next shot. However that theoretical benefit will usually be over shadowed by all the downsides of a really sucky and inconsistent grip.

There's more to a rapid follow up shot than using a high grip, and that goes double if you actually want to hit something with both the first and second shots - particularly with a DA revolver, where you have a long and comparatively heavy trigger.

If you're one of those folks I see at the range who point a revolver down range and spray bullets all over a B-27 target at 5 yards, then by all means use a high grip and make it your #1 priority. And good luck with that if you ever have to use it for real.

Getting rapid shots on target with sufficient accuracy to have a high probability of scoring the CNS and cardio pulmonary hits you need to actually stop an assailant depends on actually using the sights, having a consistent grip and decent trigger control.

I don't mean lining the sights up like you would in a bullseye match. I mean developing superb consistency in grip over long hours of practice so that the front and rear sights are already aligned with each other as the front sight on the pistol or revolver rises into your line of sight as you are looking at the target. At that point all that is needed is to place the front sight on the spot you want to bleed and finish the press of the trigger. Follow up shots work the same way, releasing the shot as soon as the front blade comes back on target, relying primarily on a consistent grip to ensure adequate sight alignment.

You get to that point over hours of practice and thousands of rounds fired. You start by smoothly and slowly drawing the gun and bringing it to eye level so that that the sights are aligned, then pause to verify the sight alignment before sending the shot down range. Once the sights are coming up pre-aligned, you can pick up the pace and shorten the pause. Eventually the pause just serves as a less than .1 second opportunity to verify the target and the need to shoot.

You'll find your self shooting faster than the guy in the next lane spraying bullets all over the target, and you'll find nearly all your shots are in the 9 and 10 rings with just a couple 8s now and then. If you're shooting an FBI bottle target, you'll find your rounds are all near the center of the bottle.

I can pretty much guarantee you'll never get there using a high grip with a DA revolver.

With a semi-auto pistol, it's less of an issue as a high grip tends to work with a fair number of semi-auto pistols. However, your priority still needs to be on developing a consistent grip, and being able to create that grip starting in the holster. If you're having to compromise that consistent grip, have to shift the pistol in your hand, or feel the pistol shift in your hand, high grip will be counterproductive. Period. If you can make it work with different grips then good for you. If not, screw the high grip as in the larger scheme of things it's just not one of the important issues.

With a DA revolver a high grip can be ridiculously counterproductive.

Look at the two photos below - it's a single hand grip, but I need one hand to hold the camera and it also shows the more critical position in the strong hand.

In the first picture, the grip is low, but the web of the hand meets the grip in exactly the intended spot, and I can create this grip drawing from my holster with 100% consistency. This means that when the revolver rises into my line of sight the sights are already aligned every time I draw, aided to a great degree by the natural point of the revolver with this grip. It also leaves the trigger finger lower with a better angle on the trigger, allowing slightly more precise trigger control with less strain.

FB523B7A-BAC7-4129-9D3D-8D8CECFC9E1F_zpstes9j3jz.jpg


With the grip moved as high as possible, short of interfering with the hammer, I can't maintain this grip consistently and it's very hard to create this grip consistently from the holster. Worse, the front blade is too high on the draw and I have to rotate my wrist forward to get the sights on target. That actually interferes with the alignment of my fore arm and slows the follow up under recoil, as well as creating both excessive strain in the arm, and inconsistency from shot to shot. Do it enough and you'll develop what amounts to tennis elbow. If you think you're going to shoot faster in this condition, you're badly mistaken. And don't even think about accuracy.

Now...to be fair, you probably won't develop tennis elbow as the ball of your thumb will be screaming at you long before then as the top for the tang will be slamming into it with each and every shot, and after a fair number of rounds your lower three fingers will be trembling from the effort of trying to prevent the revolver from rotating the pistol upward. News flash - any theoretical benefit you think you gained with the high grip will be offset by the greater tendency for the pistol to rotate in your hand, creating a slower follow up in addition to poor consistency and poor accuracy. The flinch you'll develop with a .357 Mag in a K or J frame sized revolver or a .41 or .44 in an N frame revolver will also render any possibility of accurate bullet placement an impossibility.

1E54FAF2-3F0D-4CA1-9872-E3499E705CF3_zpstnsgaa8m.jpg


Two pieces of advice on DA revolver advice:

1. Before you put much stock in any advice you hear, make sure that person can actually shoot a DA revolver well under real world self defense conditions; and

2. Understand that what is ideal for one person, with their revolver, there grips and their hands, might not work at all well for you.

There's no short cut to finding what works for you, but your number 1 priority needs to be the ability to create and maintain a consistent grip that naturally brings the sights into alignment as you raise the pistol or revolver into your line of sight and place the front blade on the target.
 
fishnfool has the right message about the trigger pulling straight back, and BB57 demonstrates it in pic #1. Even Jerry M says from the draw his grip may not be perfect, and he may or may not try to adjust it!
 
BB57's "low grip" is only marginally lower than my "high grip". As for his "high grip", that's, umm, new to me!

But generally I agree with the bulk of his Post.

(I used to shoot almost exclusively DA except for Bullseye and IHMSA. Good enough to win a match or three at Ft Benning through 2003.)
 
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