Would you have said something?

[shawn mccarver]

This practice doesn't harm an external extractor.

I think the distinguishing factor is not so much internal or external, but whether the leading edge of the extractor is tapered or not. To clarify, I doubt the practice is good for any internal extractor that I know of, and it is only recommended with some external extractors. For example, if I recall correctly, the instructor at the Glock Armorer's Class (I am not sure which one as I have taken it four or five times) said we should not load a single round directly into the chamber in the manner described, but instead, loading should be done from the magazine only. This may not be official Glock doctrine now, but it was at one time, even though Glock has an external extractor.

 

[GKC]

I learned a long time ago, and it gets reinforced every day (including this thread) that I don't know everything! I had no idea that it wasn't just as much of a problem with an external extractor as it is with an internal extractor.

The suggestion to phrase it as a question is a good one. I'm not going to in this case, of course, but a helpful suggestion to remember if I find myself in the position where I think I need to impart some wisdom...which might not be so wise.

As for me, I'll still load my semis from the magazine, instead of directly into the chamber.

 

[Rastoff]

I think the distinguishing factor is not so much internal or external, but whether the leading edge of the extractor is tapered or not.

All extractors are tapered on the leading edge. This is to prevent breakage or malfunction in the event that a round gets in the chamber ahead of the extractor.

This is why it's a problem on some and only "not recommended" on others.

This is a 1911 extractor: (image from Brownells)

As you can see it is one solid piece. Therefore, it will spring over the rim of a casing, but many repetitions will damage it.

This is an M&P extractor: (image from AREA51TACTICAL.com)

As you can see, it is much more robust than the 1911 extractor. Also, it pivots on the hole. Therefore, it doesn't need to flex to get over the rim of the case. This allows a round to be inserted and then the slide closed with little affect.

Again, this is not recommended, but won't hurt the M&P.

 

[Ofc.JL]

Mr. McCarver, if I might? I attended Beretta's 92 LE Armorer's school several years ago(I am a Police Armorer), and IIRC, the Tech told us slam loading 92's(as in round in chamber and dropping the slide) was not an accepted practice with the 92 series. He stated that the weapon can do it, but it was hard on the extractor. He did not give statistics on breakage, only that Beretta frowned on it. As an armorer, I do too. Can most extractors handle it? As a general rule, yes. But it is a strain on the design of the weapon. And with a lot of parts now being made by the MIM method, I teach my Officer's not to do it, and I explain to them why. It's also an easy way to get an AD. Not neccessarily from the slam loading(although that could happen), but more from loosing track of how many rounds are in the weapon. Officer withdraws a 15rd mag from the weapon, seeing that it is full and forgetting he did a "top-off" with a slam load, gets sloppy with safety skills and AD's the round in the chamber. Not good.
Just my experience with the subject.
Thanx,
Ofc.JL
OMG, another 4 years of Despot Socialism. Hold on tight, My brothers!

 

[Bullzaye]

I learned this lesson the hard way, with my Glock 19.

I bought it in 1988, but never carried it, my guns only saw "range" use. However, after I got out of the USAF and moved back to Phoenix, I got a job at a gun shop, and began to carry every day. At that point, I noticed the "setback" on the round I was chambering. Since this was defensive ammo, and represented a good chunk of my meager salary, I wanted to avoid wearing out my defense rounds this way. So, I began dropping the rounds directly into the chamber, and letting the slide slam closed on the chambered round. Problem solved! Or...so I thought.

Several years later, after I no longer worked at the gun shop, I was using my Glock 19 at the local Steel shoot. I suddenly found myself experiencing FTE about 4-6 times per 15 round mag. It was good practice for malfunction clearance drills...but not very confidence inspiring for a carry piece. I'd had FTE occasionally before, and I'd been wondering about it, but now I realized I had a real problem. So, after checking around, I discovered my error. Replaced the extractor, never had any more issues. Now, all my rounds get chambered directly from the magazine.

Tim

 

[shawn mccarver]

All extractors are tapered on the leading edge. This is to prevent breakage or malfunction in the event that a round gets in the chamber ahead of the extractor.

This is why it's a problem on some and only "not recommended" on others.

This is a 1911 extractor: (image from Brownells)

As you can see it is one solid piece. Therefore, it will spring over the rim of a casing, but many repetitions will damage it.

This is an M&P extractor: (image from AREA51TACTICAL.com)

As you can see, it is much more robust than the 1911 extractor. Also, it pivots on the hole. Therefore, it doesn't need to flex to get over the rim of the case. This allows a round to be inserted and then the slide closed with little affect.

Again, this is not recommended, but won't hurt the M&P.

Thank you for the photos. A picture is worth a thousand words. I appreciate you explaining it in that fashion. I don't load any pistol in the fashion described by the gun store commando. Now, I know why. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I will. Excellent photos and explanation.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Mr. McCarver, if I might? I attended Beretta's 92 LE Armorer's school several years ago(I am a Police Armorer), and IIRC, the Tech told us slam loading 92's(as in round in chamber and dropping the slide) was not an accepted practice with the 92 series. He stated that the weapon can do it, but it was hard on the extractor. He did not give statistics on breakage, only that Beretta frowned on it. As an armorer, I do too. Can most extractors handle it? As a general rule, yes. But it is a strain on the design of the weapon. And with a lot of parts now being made by the MIM method, I teach my Officer's not to do it, and I explain to them why. It's also an easy way to get an AD. Not neccessarily from the slam loading(although that could happen), but more from loosing track of how many rounds are in the weapon. Officer withdraws a 15rd mag from the weapon, seeing that it is full and forgetting he did a "top-off" with a slam load, gets sloppy with safety skills and AD's the round in the chamber. Not good.
Just my experience with the subject.
Thanx,
Ofc.JL
OMG, another 4 years of Despot Socialism. Hold on tight, My brothers!

Thank you. So many people have seen it done with the Beretta in that movie that they do it anyway. I do not do it and I appreciate you giving the official armorer's class instruction. Thank you.

 

[Rastoff]

Thanks for that story Tim. That is a perfect example. It worked for what was probably many thousands of rounds, but eventually failed. Well, not "failed", but certainly degraded.

This will happen to every gun over enough time. However, one method certainly causes more wear than another. Tim's extractor didn't break and even functioned for years. Eventually he had a problem though.

The take away here is to take care of your gun.

 

[N4KVE]

The guy's on the HK Pro forum say if you load the chamber that way, you will destroy the gun. I doubt that. However, in my Beretta 9000s booklet, it states pull open slide, insert a round into the chamber, press the slide catch to close the slide. It also states to load in a mag & drop the slide. So how bad can it be if it's OK to do per the instruction booklet? GARY

 

[OneJzsupra]

Do they have issue with M&P's slamming shut with chambered rounds? I only ask this because we do this sometimes with M9s and have never had an issue.... But then again the M9 is a hammer fired gun with safety... but we've done with cocked with safety off while shooting at the range.

I'm just trying to find out whether it's an issue with a striker fired gun.

 

[Ofc.JL]

As I understand it, the "Slam Load" method of charging an auto pistol has only been a more recent problem. I know that now and then, you found a few who have done it that way forever. As a younger man that followed in the way of the gun, A la Cooper, we were instructed not to load any auto pistol that way. It wasn't considered the correct way, per the Manufactor and Instructors. But it now seems to be more prevelant, due to the movies, I'm afraid, and like I said, it is hard on a pistol. I have changed out several extractors over the years that have been chipped or damaged. As to how or why they got that way, well that can be subjective. I have always considered extractors to be a consumable part, and a person that shoots a lot is wise to backstock several.
As to advising someone about do and dont's when loading, it depends on the situation and the individual. We all know some folks that can't be shown or told anything. They know it all.
And for OneJzsupra; No, it can be a problem on any handgun or firearm that has an extractor. Example...the AR15/M16M4 Stoner system has no primary extractor feeding. The extractor MUST rachet over the case mouth as the round seats. Over a period of time, even as hard as they are, AR extractors wear out and need to be replaced. The cheap ones just break off. The Stoner AR system is hard on extractors primarily for this reason.
Anyhow, the lesson is: load the weapon as the manufacterer recommends for longer weapon service life.

 

[accessbob]

S&W says not to manually insert a round into the chamber. Put the magazine in, rack the slide and then pull the magazine out and top it off.

WARNING: ALWAYS LOAD A ROUND INTO THE
CHAMBER BY FEEDING IT FROM THE MAGAZINE.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING CAN RESULT
IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH TO YOU OR OTHERS.
NEVER ATTEMPT TO LOAD THE PISTOL BY INSERTING A
ROUND INTO THE OPEN EJECTION PORT.

I may have said something.

 

[OneJzsupra]

S&W says not to manually insert a round into the chamber. Put the magazine in, rack the slide and then pull the magazine out and top it off.

I may have said something.

This sounds like a warning due to a chance of the gun going off, not due to damage to the weapon (of course i'd rather have a broken gun then a dead friend)