Wow! 9mm is STOUT out of a J frame . . .

[bmcgilvray]

9mm is considerably more powerful than .38 special, despite the smaller cartridge case. Naturally, recoil will be sharper.

I know some believe the .38 special is more powerful than 9mm because of the long case, but it’s just not so.

For a different opinion by a contrarian who's a .38 Special fan:

I do believe it's so that the .38 Special is the more powerful and capable of the two and don't believe that it's because of the long case, though the longer case allows .38 Special to achieve its meaningful performance with lower pressure. The .38 Special is quite capable if not deliberately hampered with weak and watery load choices, choices which include much of the so called "+P" sold these days. In many cases +P is just so much extra ink on a box label. We're a timorous bunch, this present generation of shooters.

If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike.

Yeah, the .38 Special is said to be hampered by elderly revolvers still in circulation out there. The .38 Special has suffered from a dearth of ammunition development in recent times while the 9mm has enjoyed all the developmental attention with the supposedly better bullets, propellants, and various +P and +P+ loadings offered. It's conveniently overlooked though that there are a number of 9mm pistols out there, also hoary of head with age, which shouldn't be fired with "performance" 9mm ammunition, but somehow 9mm gets a pass with performance load development while .38 Special has been shunted to the side except for a few intrepid boutique ammunition makers who assume that adults with discretion are purchasing their wares.

For having "lots a' bullets" on tap, for the automatic pistol fan, the 9mm's great. 9mm benefits from current marketing, but it's not considerably better. For meaningful terminal ballistic performance the .38 Special cartridge can still hold its own against the 9mm. Truth be told the two cartridges are two peas in a pod, performance wise.

 

[max503]

I'm not his biggest fan but he is often right on target in his writings and musings. Just not always, I admit that. But I don't know why you don't like that phrase because it's quite explicit and meaningful.

If anything I should shoot my carry guns MORE, not less.

 

[roo_ster]

I've got three 9mm 637-2 J-frame conversions. Weight with titanium cylinder and combat grips is about 12oz (about 11oz lighter than a 940). Recoil with 147gr jhp is brisk, but not particularly unpleasant. So far, I've not had a problem with crimp jump.

Three? Who did the work?

 

[JimCunn]

"If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike"

Which commercially availible .38Sp loads outperform the commercially available 9x19?

 

[JimCunn]

Roo ster, TKC reamed my titanium .357Mag cylinders and cut them for moon clips. I timed them and cut titanium center pins to fit myself.

 

[stansdds]

Some people like to poo-poo the 9x19, calling it a weak caliber, barely makes the grade for personal defense, but then say the 38 Special is an excellent defensive caliber. Realistically, the 9x19 packs a lot of punch in a very small package.

Under the old copper crusher pressure testing method, the 9x19 was seen to generate much lower pressures than the 357 Magnum, but with modern testing equipment, it actually generates the same pressure as 357 Magnum and even more in NATO and +P versions. Velocity wise, the 9x19 is very close to the short barrel 357 Magnum ammo.

 

[otis24]

Recoil was stout out of the 9mm Ruger SP101 that I briefly owned as well. Very surprising!

 

[bmcgilvray]

"If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike"

Which commercially availible .38Sp loads outperform the commercially available 9x19?

Buffalo Bore and Underwood are a good place to begin when seeking truly "meaningful" loads for those needing .38 Special performance.

An internet search may turn up on of those "People also ask ..." links

People also ask
Is .38 Special better than 9mm?

What is the most powerful 38 special ammo?

The answers that both of the links provided in the two above questions are just so much bunk.

Here's an thread I stuck up here on Smith & Wesson Forum a decade ago showing some factory loads and some handloads. Since that time I've also used the Underwood ammunition, finding similar performance to the Buffalo Bore loads.

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

I like bullet weight and .38 Special delivers meaningful performance with heavier bullets. I don't like lightweight bullets so eschew all the 9mm expanding bullet loadings that are touted to be so "high-tech" and "enhanced."

 

[JimCunn]

I use plain old 147gr 9x19 jhp for 292 ft-lbs out of the 637-2. It's adequate for my purposes.

 

[foggbird]

Maybe you should try a Charter Arms .44 Special. A little larger, a little heavier, a much better factory grip, a much heavier caliber and less recoil. Or at least the felt recoil seems lighter to me.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

I have never shot a 9mm j frame but I want to. One of my coworkers has a 940 and said he qualified on it one year and couldn’t stand the thought of shooting 50 rounds in one session ever again.

The energy of the 9mm is closer to 357 mag than it is to 38spl. I had a CA Pitbull in 40 and it reminded me of shooting a 357 j frame.

 

[JimCunn]

Who's that post directed to?
147gr 9x19 in 12oz 637-2 seems about ideal in all regards to me.

 

[bmcgilvray]

How may the energy of the 9mm be demonstrated to be closer to the .357 Magnum than it is to the .38 Special?

 

[Loyaljeeper]

How may the energy of the 9mm be demonstrated to be closer to the .357 Magnum than it is to the .38 Special?

The average 9mm load produces about 325-350 Ft/lbs. in a Shield. There are million tests out there in these shields. That is about a close to a 2” revolver as we can get because we don’t measure the chamber with revolvers like we do semi-autos. Most 124-125 grain loads are clocking about 1100-1125 fps. out of a Shield which is exactly what the 125 grain loads from Winchester, Federal, and Remington are measuring in j frames. In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads.

Somewhat irrelevant, but SAAMI maximum pressure for both 357 mag and 9mm are almost the same at 34k to 35k.

 

[bmcgilvray]

The average 9mm load produces about 325-350 Ft/lbs. in a Shield. There are million tests out there in these shields. That is about a close to a 2” revolver as we can get because we don’t measure the chamber with revolvers like we do semi-autos. Most 124-125 grain loads are clocking about 1100-1125 fps. out of a Shield which is exactly what the 125 grain loads from Winchester, Federal, and Remington are measuring in j frames. In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads.

Somewhat irrelevant, but SAAMI maximum pressure for both 357 mag and 9mm are almost the same at 34k to 35k.

"In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads."

Yes, of course it is if a person deliberately chooses to limit himself to only the use of such loads in his 2-inch snub.

There's more to the .38 Special cartridge than such weak, watery loads just as there's more to .38 Special revolvers than only the snubs that current conventional wisdom wants.


38 Special +P 125 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point – Underwood Ammo

Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition


But wait! There's more!

How about a realistic 1000 plus feet per second with good heavy 158 grain bullets from out of 2-inch snub .38 Specials?

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point Gas Check – Underwood Ammo

 

[JimCunn]

147gr 9mm from a 1-7/8" J-frame chronos about 950fps for roughly 295 ft-lbs of energy. Everyone can make their own comparisons with .38Sp and .357Mag out of a J-frame and decide for themselves.

From the second link in post #35,
Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo
125 gr. L.V. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,050 fps/M.E. 306 ft. lbs.)

So, about the same energy as a standard 147gr 9mm at 5 times the cost.

As an aside, if measured from the back of the chamber like a semi, the 1-7/8" j-frame measures 3.5".

 

[Loyaljeeper]

"In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads."

Yes, of course it is if a person deliberately chooses to limit himself to only the use of such loads in his 2-inch snub.

There's more to the .38 Special cartridge than such weak, watery loads just as there's more to .38 Special revolvers than only the snubs that current conventional wisdom wants.
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I think the majority of us that have been around guns and ammo for decades, and have shot upwards of 500k rounds in our lifetime, stick with common manufacturers and well tested ammo; especially in defense ammo.

Well of course there are going to be exceptions. One being the 1400fps 9mm load from Buffalo Bore. Another being the 110gr 38spl +p+ from Super Vel that has blown up a 357 mag recently. I hate boutique ammo! I bought a box of Buffalo Bore 15 years ago and thought the performance was horrible. I wrote it off as a cheap lesson in life. It was an amateur mistake. And to me, the boutique ammo is for amateurs. If I can’t buy it by the case to test I don’t want it.

 

[bmcgilvray]

To me deliberately limiting oneself is for amateurs.

Of course all is anecdotal that is posted on firearms forums. I shot my first .38 Special revolver in summer of 1968, have owned, shot, and handloaded for the cartridge since 1975.

Boutique ammunition that I have tested over the chronograph gave velocity averages that were adequately uniform and performance was satisfactory. I like to buy 'em for testing and for comparison with handloaded ammunition results, but prefer to "roll my own" when it comes to performance loads.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

147gr 9mm from a 1-7/8" J-frame chronos about 950fps for roughly 295 ft-lbs of energy. Everyone can make their own comparisons with .38Sp and .357Mag out of a J-frame and decide for themself.

As an aside, if measured from the back of the chamber like a semi, the 1-7/8" j-frame measures 3.5".

I have followed your build and a few other 9mm j frame builds over the years.
I have been really tempted to do one myself. I picked up a 360j when they were cheap just for the build. If it weren’t for my agency being reluctant to allow modified weapons on duty, I would have done it. When I found the 357 Golden Saber cheap I bought a bunch. They were purposely loaded to replicate 9mm energy. We have tested upwards of 1100 fps in our j frames. The 38spl Golden Saber is a winner too.

 

[JimCunn]

"I think the majority of us that have been around guns and ammo for decades, and have shot upwards of 500k rounds in our lifetime, stick with common manufacturers and well tested ammo; especially in defense ammo".

Yup. Though since I've only been shooting handguns for seventy years, I can't claim to be experienced.

BTW, that 4th link gives 343 ft-lbs out of a 1-7/8 barrel vs 295 for a standard pressure 9mm. Again at only five times the cost. I think I will stay with the anemic 147gr 9mm.

I didn't start reloading .38Sp until 1965. I like them OK, and have only blown up one gun.

For me, a heavy standard pressure 9mm in an Airweight J-frame lightened to 12 oz with titanium cylinder is just about the perfect blend of power, weight, recoil, accuracy, eject/reload speed, and bullet expense.