WWII: How many fighter planes were shot down by U.S. bombers?

[Farmer17]

I've been watching a few war movies on TV over the holiday and watching the fighter planes attacking the slower moving bombers, it seems like an easy target for them. But then I see the big bombers with all the ball turrents with twin .50's and the windows everywhere with machine guns poking out, who really had the advantage. I know the Zeros and Messerschmidts were small and fast and harder to hit but there was a lot of firepower on the B-17s so just curious about how many fighters were shot down by bombers versus fighter to fighter, or anti-aircraft fire?

 

[LedFowl]

From something I read somewhere, I believe the Germans thought we exaggerated the number of their fighters shot down, probably because, with so many gunners firing at them, victories were claimed by more than one gunner. Whether that was true or not, can't say.

 

[Dave_n]

A very common failing. there is an excellent "Janes" book about fighting the Luftwaffe and it gives both sides with after the war numbers. Massive exaggeration due to large numbers of gunners. The number of bombers shot down required proof of crashed plane, so those that did not make it back to the UK but were still flying when leaving Europe could not be claimed. Dave_n

 

[UncleEd]

Bombers shot down quite a few but the number may not be known though the Luftwaffe probably kept a tally.

The Luftwaffe did discover that the B-17 formations' weak spot was head on so Gen. Galland ordered his planes to close with the bombers from the front.

To counteract this failing of not enough fire power in the front of the B-17, a ball-like gun mount was developed that put more machine guns right in the noses of the planes.

Once the Eighth Air Force got good fighter support (''Our little friends''), and the fighters searched ahead for the Germans rather than wait for them to pounce, the German losses really started to mount. Also by then, the Germans didn't have the time to train fighter pilots sufficiently.

 

[feralmerril]

I worked with a guy who was a tail gunner. He claimed one shared victory with another gunner.

 

[shouldazagged]

There was a "chin" turret on the B-17G. I assume it was operated by the bombardier, but I'd have to check that.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

To counteract this failing of not enough fire power in the front of the B-17, a ball-like gun mount was developed that put more machine guns right in the noses of the planes.

That was the "chin" turret. It helped to make it very dangerous to attack American heavy bomber formations formations via fighter mounted MGs/cannon. The Germans developed parachute bombs and rocket tactics to lessen the danger to their fighter pilots. Ultimately it became a war of attrition in the skies over Europe with the Germans stripping other fronts of their fighters to try to stem the tide of allied air power.
Erich Hartman, Germany's top ace, was sent briefly to battle American long rang heavy bombers attacking the Polestie oil refineries. Though he scored an initial amazing feat of downing 5 Mustangs in one mission, he never came close to touching an American bomber and was brought down himself shortly after by American Mustangs. Hitler sent him back to the Eastern front, I suspect, to spare him from the meat grinder in the skies of western Europe.
John

 

[rwsmith]

I didn't know...

I didn't know my neighbor was a tail gunner with two purple hearts until after he died. R.I.P. 'Robbie' Robinson.

 

[LVSteve]

There is a very interesting piece on the difficulties of confirming air victories in Wikipedia. Confirmation and overclaiming of aerial victories during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Consider this example:

During a mission against the Focke Wulf plant near Bremen, The Americans claimed 63 German fighters destroyed in aerial combat, plus 15 probable and 17 damaged. Only two were destroyed by enemy action, with nine damaged.

As for the Germans making head on attacks against the 8th Air Force, this is in stark contrast to the behaviour of Luftwaffe pilots in the Battle of Britain. Group Captain Kent noted in his biography that in this period he could turn head on to a diving Me-109 and it nearly always turned and climbed away without firing a shot.

 

[wbraswell]

I would think the fighters would have a huge advantage. Speed, maneuverability, and control of the aircraft. MEs and FWs, as I recall, usually carried cannon, also. Our tactic of tight box formation, was a good idea, but that also made flak more effective. I would think the best attack angle would have been a frontal attack from above, (12 o'clock high) since the only guns available would be the top turret, and the target would be the cockpit, and that turret. Maximum closing speed, and best view of the target. On a 1000 bomber raid, I can't see any estimate of enemy losses, to be even marginally credible.

 

[Texas Star]

That was the "chin" turret. It helped to make it very dangerous to attack American heavy bomber formations formations via fighter mounted MGs/cannon. The Germans developed parachute bombs and rocket tactics to lessen the danger to their fighter pilots. Ultimately it became a war of attrition in the skies over Europe with the Germans stripping other fronts of their fighters to try to stem the tide of allied air power.
Erich Hartman, Germany's top ace, was sent briefly to battle American long rang heavy bombers attacking the Polestie oil refineries. Though he scored an initial amazing feat of downing 5 Mustangs in one mission, he never came close to touching an American bomber and was brought down himself shortly after by American Mustangs. Hitler sent him back to the Eastern front, I suspect, to spare him from the meat grinder in the skies of western Europe.
John

If memory serves, Maj. Hartmann ended WW II with 352 kills. I seriously doubt that any other fighter pilot will come close to that record.

The top scoring Allied pilot was a Russian Maj. Gen. with 62 kills. Ivan Kozhudeb. (sp?)

The top pilot in the west was probably a South African serving in the RAF, named Marmaduke St. John Pattle. He is thought to have had at least 50 kills but he was shot down covering the British withdrawal from Greece and his squadron records were also lost.

The top US pilot was Maj. Richard Bong, MH, with 40 kills. His chief rival Maj. Tom McGuire, MH, had 38 kills when he steered too tightly with auxiliary fuel tanks still on his P-38 and went into a fatal spin.

The RAF's Wing Commander Johnny Johnson had, I think 38 kills, even with our McGuire.

The US Navy's top scorer was a Commander McCampbell at 34 kills. A Hellcat pilot.

The Germans and Japanese both had a number of pilots with over 100 kills, some with more than twice that.

 

[Smithpride]

Another questions about bombers is: how many of our own bombers did we shoot down with .50's and our own bombs?

 

[the ringo kid]

If memory serves, Maj. Hartmann ended WW II with 352 kills. I seriously doubt that any other fighter pilot will come close to that record.

The top scoring Allied pilot was a Russian Maj. Gen. with 62 kills. Ivan Kozhudeb. (sp?)

The top pilot in the west was probably a South African serving in the RAF, named Marmaduke St. John Pattle. He is thought to have had at least 50 kills but he was shot down covering the British withdrawal from Greece and his squadron records were also lost.

The top US pilot was Maj. Richard Bong, MH, with 40 kills. His chief rival Maj. Tom McGuire, MH, had 38 kills when he steered too tightly with auxiliary fuel tanks still on his P-38 and went into a fatal spin.

The RAF's Wing Commander Johnny Johnson had, I think 38 kills, even with our McGuire.

The US Navy's top scorer was a Commander McCampbell at 34 kills. A Hellcat pilot.

The Germans and Japanese both had a number of pilots with over 100 kills, some with more than twice that.

Quite correct on the above. Also, on Hartmann, he "only" shot down either 4 or 6 American fighters--all were Mustangs and all were on the same day. He was returning from a recruitment meeting he was invited to by General Galland. Galland was trying to develope a specialty squadron "JV 44" madeup of the best fighter pilots they had. Hartmann turned them down for some reason--left to return to his unit and on the way-was ambushed by the American Mustangs. He shot at least 4 down in that single engagement. Its alsosaid that Erich Hartmann greatly regretted having to shoot down Ameicans as he was a fan of us.

 

[the ringo kid]

Forgot to mention, my Dad was a Ball Turret Gunner on a B-17.I dont know if he shot any down as he never said much about his WWII time but did speak mostly of his Korean War service.

 

[Bruce51]

friendly fire

While I've always wondered about how many fighters were shot down by bombers the real question for me is how many bombers were hit by friendly fire?

Can you imagine all those fifty calibers shooting at fighters in a formation and not accidentally hitting other bombers?

I watch a lot of airplane programs on Utube including Clash of Wings, No room for Error, Dogfights and any many others.

There is a story of a B17 in the Pacific shooting down numerous Zeros while alone on a photo mission. Dog fights, long odds, part 3.

This program shows that a bomber can take on fighters and win.

Back to the point about avoiding hitting other bombers. Does anyone know how this was done or was it just accepted as part of the risk?

BLM

 

[Will Carry]

As I understand it. The 8th Air Force lost more men in WWII than the Navy and Marines combined.

The Germans were constantly up-gunning their fighters with 20mm and 30mm guns. It took an average of 20 hits with a 20mm gun to bring down a B-17 and 6 hits with a 30mm gun. This is from the book "A Higher Call" about a German Bf109 ace who escorted a damaged B-17 out of danger because he did have the heart to shoot it down. The writer actually found the German ace living in Canada and reunited him with the B-17 pilot before they died of old age. I highly recommend reading this book. That B-17 was shot up and running on 2 engines. The third engine would run for a while, then it would catch fire and they would have to shut it down. All the crew was dead or wounded. The German ace took off with a full load of ammo but couldn't bring himself to shoot it down. He escorted the B-17 over the German Flak batteries at 2000 ft. The Germans held their fire when they saw the Bf-109 flying next to it. The B-17 made it home but were told to never ever say anything about their wild story. It is not in the history books.

 

[Bkreutz]

The B-17 got it's "Flying Fortress" name because of it's many guns. The concept was that it wouldn't need escort fighters. This idea came about before it ever got into combat, once they started flying hot missions, they quickly realized this wasn't the case. The tremendous loss of bombers over Germany didn't drop to "acceptable" levels until they got fighters (P51) that could escort them all the way to the target and back.

 

[armenius]

Another questions about bombers is: how many of our own bombers did we shoot down with .50's and our own bombs?

An excellent point.It has been a while since I read Ploesti,but as I recall more B-24's were lost in those extremely low level raids from a following A/C being over a bomb by the leading exploding or from secondary explosions,than were lost to enemy fire.Our losses were devastating.The bombers were so low the gunners were machine gunning flak emplacements.Mant A/C were so low that when hit the immediately bellyed in on fields just a few feet below them.If you enjoy a great book read "Ploesti" by James Duggan.

 

[Kinman]

I knew two pilots from WWII, one was a neighbor that was a pilot of a B-17 and lost his leg to a head on attack of an ME-109 and its fearsome 37mm nose cannon which killed his co-pilot outright and destroyed most of the cockpit injuring his right leg to the point that after getting plane back safely it was removed. He said it was nearly impossible for one B-17 to withstand an attack from experienced pilots, but in a group they held their own very well. It was such a big deal when one of his gunners actually got credit for downing a plane that he got to paint the plane near his gun...some gunners were better than others like anything but it was a tough job...people forget that it was freezing cold and you had to be on oxygen most of the time. The other guy was a buddy's dad who had been an ME-109 pilot and was shot down by a B-17 and lost his leg as well. He was captured after crash landing his plane and sent to an internment camp somewhere in the states, afterward becoming a citizen. I always thought it would have great to get both of those guys together to listen to their stories. The bomber pilot told us that it was a terrible thing to be responsible for dropping bombs that could be killing innocent civilians, he had a family, he couldn't imagine his kids getting bombs dropped on them. They tried the best they could to get the bombs where they were supposed to go but when it came to fire bombing he could never get over the thought of all the innocent little children, it still haunted him.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I know someone, now in his 90's, who was training to fly bombers for the invasion of Japan.
After the Atomic Bombs were dropped all the training flights were grounded and he played 6 months of touch football in the South Pacific before returning Stateside.