WWII Royal Navy subs question, again.

[bigwheelzip]

Today's thread about the TV series Silent Service made me want to ask this again. It stumped the forum last time. I don't know the answer, but considering its prominence, and lack of available data, I'm guessing it stands for clandestine missions.

Can any of you sub-loving historians identify the meaning of the plaque with horseshoe shapes in front of the crew of the HMS Utmost.

This photo has the caption: "The crew of H.M.S. Utmost, Feb.6th 1942. My grandfather Arthur Lee (born in 1909) is behind the officer 2nd from the left at the front. The crew, under the Captain Cdr Richard Cayley, transfered to H.M.S. P311, a submarine presumed mined whilst on operations in the Mediterranean. Her last signal was received on 31st December 1942 and she was officially declared lost with all hands a few days later. My grandfather's rank was Chief Petty Officer and his date of death is officially given as 8th January, 1943. The sub was about to be titled H.M.S. Tutankhamen on the orders of Winston Churchill, who insisted that all submarines should have names."




For reference: This other photo of the same crew, seemingly at the same place and time, is the usual type made by Royal Navy submariners. Taken without the placard and senior officers.

 

[da gimp]

I'm wondering if those pieces came off their torpedoes... a type of mechanical safety, removed from the torpedo when it was put in the tube... and replaced if the torpedo wasn't used. Each of those could signify : A) a torpedo fired at an enemy ship... or B) a torpedo that hit & sank an enemy ship... I'm just guessing.

 

[Big Cholla]

da gimp got it exactly right. The horseshoe like object is the propeller lock that MUST be taken off right before the torpedo was locked inside the tube for firing. Here is a link that gives the procedure for firing a live torpedo in a WW II British Submarine. ....

21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes - Chapter 11

 

[Texas Star]

Send the photo to the Naval attache at the British Embassy. Tell him or her what you told us. The address in Washington, DC is probably on the Net.


If they don't know the answer, they may well send on your letter to some RN historical society that can answer.


The British Military attache helped me that way a few years ago.


If nothing more, you'll get some nice mail with UK stamps.


Good luck. I'm of British descent, too. Pity about your grandfather. RIP.

PS: The board is giving me fits. This was written long before it actually posted.

I suspect the men who said that the horse shoes are torpedo safeties are right. But you can still write the letter and probably learn more and get some nice Crown stationery in reply.

 

[Marshwheeling]

There is a lot more to wonder about in that photo: the eight daggers or scimitars at the upper right of the Jolly Roger; the nine horizontal bars to the left. And how about the depiction of a life-ring in the lower right corner?

 

[Tom S.]

Actually, it's to keep track of the number of horses they sunk. Weird lot, the British.

 

[bigwheelzip]

da gimp got it exactly right. The horseshoe like object is the propeller lock that MUST be taken off right before the torpedo was locked inside the tube for firing.

So maybe this is some sort of individual deployment torpedo activity plaque, separate from the running tally of the Jolly Roger behind them?

 

[bigwheelzip]

Send the photo to the Naval attache at the British Embassy.....

Pity about your grandfather. RIP.

Good Idea. I looked for help on the UK site for the Royal Navy, without luck.

Sorry for the misconception, but the quote was from a caption that accompanied the photo that someone else posted. The crew are no relation.

 

[OldBrit]

There is a lot more to wonder about in that photo: the eight daggers or scimitars at the upper right of the Jolly Roger; the nine horizontal bars to the left. And how about the depiction of a life-ring in the lower right corner?

From my (increasingly failing) memory of what my grandad (on minesweepers, not a sub-mariner) said:

The life-ring = they rescued sailors from a sunken vessel or aircrew from a downed plane.

The bars need colour to be sure, but denote ships sunk

White = Merchant ship
Red = Warship
Yellow bar = Japanese vessel (merchant I think)
and there are others that I can't recall

The daggers (though I agree look like scimitars, so I may be wrong) = cloak and dagger work, mostly infiltration or exfiltration of commandos or agents from enemy shores.

But he may have been having me on, of course.........!

 

[bigwheelzip]

There is a lot more to wonder about in that photo: the eight daggers or scimitars at the upper right of the Jolly Roger; the nine horizontal bars to the left. And how about the depiction of a life-ring in the lower right corner?

^^^ OldBrit got there first. ^^^^

Dagger - 'Cloak and dagger' operation: typically the delivery or recovery of shore parties from enemy territory.

Lifebuoy - Rescue personnel from downed aircraft or sunken ships.

Different types of Bars denote merchant or warships damaged or sunk.

 

[PatriotX]

It takes a special type to work on a sub, IMO.

I was able to tour a post-war British diesel-electric sub in Saint Malo, France, and two things stuck with me:

1) The hot-bed rotation, where you shared your rack with 2 other sailors.
2) The headroom, or lack thereof.

Not a one of the men I met was over 5'8". Most were a short and sturdy sort, and I can attest that they were far more adept at alcohol consumption than I. Quantities that would have hospitalized my 6'5" frame were imbibed with a quiet professionalism by these gentlemen with seemingly no outward effects.

 

[bigwheelzip]

da gimp got it exactly right. The horseshoe like object is the propeller lock that MUST be taken off right before the torpedo was locked inside the tube for firing.

Oddly, knowing now what these mounted items are, has yielded no additional information from Google regarding their meaning in the display.
Another oddity is that I've viewed many photo's of Royal Navy sub crews posing together on deck, with their Jolly Roger flag. No other group crew picture shows this propeller lock collection.
I'm thinking it represents the number of torpedo fired at the enemy, but why is that so proudly displayed in only this one picture, and nowhere else. Curious.
I'll let it sit a bit longer, then try Texas Star's idea, print it and sent it to the Brit's for assistance.

 

[islamoradamark]

great picture fascinating story history at it finest thank you all

 

[OldBrit]

I'll let it sit a bit longer, then try Texas Star's idea, print it and sent it to the Brit's for assistance.

If you do decide to do that, you might like to try the guys at the Submariners Association (Index) The chairman is Jim McMaster ([email protected]).

I don't know these folk at all, but as a general rule (and please don't quote me over this side of the pond) our official military channels are not always too forthcoming about questions from people not in the Whitehall MoD bubble! It has always been a revelation how open the US armed forces are to inquiries even from an 'alien' such as myself and how damn helpful too! Anyway, much as I don't want to let the UK side down (they were briefly my paymasters after all, a long while ago!) but if you want a reasonably swift answer (i.e. some time before the next Ice Age) the Association might be a better bet.

Incidentally, that 'alien' description of non-US citizens has always made me chuckle; long, long ago when described as such (in the nicest possible way, you understand) by an immigration officer at LA airport (after about 14 hours flying) I swear the X-files theme tune was playing in my head!

I almost thought of going all 1950s B-movie on him and saying "I come in peace..... take me to your leader," but he looked pretty harrassed, and it had been a long day.

Ye gods, time to stop prattling; good luck with finding out something useful (and if you do hit the proverbial British stiff upper lip, please get back to me if you think I can help in any way).

 

[Baggy Wrinkle]

The best source of information on U.K. submarines is the Royal Navy Submarine Museum in Gosport, U.K.. They have a website and if that doesn't tell you what you want to know, you can probably send them an email.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

The number of "horseshoes", nine, is the same as the horizontal bars for ships sunk. A plaque could be displayed inside the sub, and admired everyday, while a flag could not.

A single torpedo was not the common method to attack a ship. They fired multiple torpedoes. So I don't think the plaque represents just shots, but ships sunk.

 

[OldBrit]

The number of "horseshoes", nine, is the same as the horizontal bars for ships sunk. A plaque could be displayed inside the sub, and admired everyday, while a flag could not.

A single torpedo was not the common method to attack a ship. They fired multiple torpedoes. So I don't think the plaque represents just shots, but ships sunk.

Oh well played, Sir! Never even thought about that ..... I think we have a winner!

 

[da gimp]

Oh well played, Sir! Never even thought about that ..... I think we have a winner!

that's what I said in my first post... look at the top... scenario #1 & scenario # 2.......... gee whiz.

 

[bigwheelzip]

that's what I said in my first post...

It makes sense as a guess, but dozens of searches, viewing thousands of images, failed to turn up a single additional instance of the practice.
Could be the crew of the Utmost were displaying their own unique flair, rather than carrying on a submariners tradition.
Was hoping an old seadog or buff might know of the practice.

 

[OldBrit]

that's what I said in my first post... look at the top... scenario #1 & scenario # 2.......... gee whiz.

Sorry, wasn't trying to deny your suggestion right at the outset.

I was referring to the exact number correlation being pointed out 'twixt the flag bars and the torpedo horseshoes, and the idea that the plaque you could have on permament display in the boat, the flag you couldn't.

Apologies if that didn't entirely come across properly in my post.