Yellow hair

[therevjay]

Why do modern "experts" run down ALL Custers actions? Patton called him the greatest Cav leader in the US Army (except for Patton..of course)

I remember that from AIT at Ft. Knox . Inscription over Patton museum door.

If my posts get a little foggy sorry. Combo of methadone, cancer & other drugs

 

[zzzippper]

I don't know how Patton could make that assertion having never met Custer. I think he short charged Stuart.

 

[Ματθιας]

Didn't his hubris get him and his men killed.

 

[Smoke]

I don't know how Patton could make that assertion having never met Custer. I think he short charged Stuart.

Custer is the only Union Cavalry offier that ever fought Stuart to a standstill

 

[zzzippper]

Didn't his hubris get him and his men killed.

That and the hatred between him, Reno, and Benteen. At one point Custer could see another part of his command being attacked and just sat and watched it from a hill top because he resented that commander and if anyone beat the indians he wanted to be the one in order to get the glory. A very flawed person.

 

[Smoke]

A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Bighorn - the Last Great Battle of the American West by James Donovan ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Someone here turned me on to this book. It's one of the best accounts I've read

Please see this thread

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/394621-book-recommendations-little-bighorn.html

 

[shouldazagged]

Undoubtedly Custer had guts to spare. He likely deserved the brevet rank of brigadier general during the war. But he was arrogant, reckless, and excessively impressed with himself. Those traits led to his death and the slaughter of his men at the Little Big Horn.

 

[jlrhiner]

Dash and daring is sometimes enough. The SAS motto, "Who Dares Wins" sums it up nicely.

As far as cavalry leaders, Nathan Bedford Forrest.

 

[cmort666]

He had more guts than common sense.

And it should not be forgotten that he THOUGHT he was attacking women and children, and was too arrogant to be certain about it.

They say it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

The Cheyenne and Sioux weren't in a forgiving mood...

 

[therevjay]

who will beat the Indians

That and the hatred between him, Reno, and Benteen. At one point Custer could see another part of his command being attacked and just sat and watched it from a hill top because he resented that commander and if anyone beat the indians he wanted to be the one in order to get the glory. A very flawed person.

Psssst, the Indians won.

 

[therevjay]

"Only fools think they know everything"

He had more guts than common sense.

And it should not be forgotten that he THOUGHT he was attacking women and children, and was too arrogant to be certain about it.

They say it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

The Cheyenne and Sioux weren't in a forgiving mood...

He shoulda listened to the Crow.

 

[handejector]

"Fortune Favors the Bold."
Custer was bold.
He had courage.
Any Army leadership course one attends will have this painted on a wall somewhere-
"Even a poorly conceived plan, executed with vigor and determination, is far more likely to succeed than taking no decisive action." (many slight variants exist)
Again, Fortune Favors the Bold.

I also believe he was such an arrogant narcissist (translation= he was 'bout haf nuts) that he believed he was immortal and destined to be President of the US after he pacified the plains.

No doubt he was brilliant in the CW, but show me a strategy he wrote. He simply engaged. He hit hard and fast.
Fortune favors the bold......

He did stop Stuart at Gettysburg, and lost more men than any other union Cav unit in the battle.
Fortune favors the bold.

At the LBH, he DID quickly devise a strategy. A very poor one.
His troops and horses were exhausted, hungry, and thirsty. The Crow scouts said it was the biggest village they had ever seen, with the biggest pony herd they had ever seen. He ignored them, and almost every one deserted rather than ride into certain annihilation with him. He did no recon, and did not assess the field after totally ignoring the intel he had.
Fortune favors the bold.
So, he simply divided his command, sending Reno straight in, and PROMISED to support him.
He then changed his mind and decided to flank the village and hit the rear while they were looking at Reno.
So, he willingly engaged a massively overwhelming force (the scout intel) with exhausted and hungry men and horses and no real strategy other than to hit and hit hard and fast like he had always done.
Fortune did NOT favor the bold that day.

It can be argued that he had disobeyed Terry's orders to wait for Terry before attacking.

Look at his actions on the Wash-ita. A rather useless massacre, and he left the field without even trying to determine the fate of Elliot and about 20 troopers. He also reported a phony body count.

Did you know he was court-martialed for being AWOL because he took off when he missed his wife?

I won't even get into his publicized political exploits and insubordination to Grant.

True, officers in the 7th seemed to be sharply divided into two groups-
>sycophants who worshiped him, thinking he might become the POTUS. (I feel the brass coming to me!)
>the rest who despised, hated, or reviled him to various degrees because of the events at the Wash-ita and his hunger for adoration and glory.

If I met him in person, I suspect I'd be ready to depart from him forever or just shoot him inside of 30 minutes. More likely 15 minutes.
He was a despicable fool who finally met his destiny. The tragedy is that he took well over 200 troops with him.

 

[zzzippper]

Custer is the only Union Cavalry offier that ever fought Stuart to a standstill

A standstill is not a victory. Stuart's body of work is greater and speaks for itself.

 

[jlrhiner]

The only thing I could add to Lee's post is that while Stuart was in overall command of the Cavalry of the Army of Northern Virginia, Wade Hampton was who actually fought against Custer at Gettysburg.

 

[jlrhiner]

Custer is the only Union Cavalry offier that ever fought Stuart to a standstill

Phil Sheridan killed him at Yellow Tavern. (That should count as a win)

 

[Smoke]

There are actually two books about Custer that I really like because they (IMO) paint a clearer picture of the man.

The first is The Custer Reader by Paul Andrew Hutton It's a compilation of articles about Custer some of which were written by his contemporaries that I think sheds a different light on him because it does draw so heavily on what people were saying about him in the moment.

One of the things that it posits is that there were very few General Officer positions in the Army in the late 1870s and the officers that were competing for them (including Benteen and Reno) all went out of their way to get glory for themselves hoping to get promoted. According to the author Custer had no interest in the Presidency (and I've never seen any history book that offered any more than speculation to the contrary) he was going for the big win at LBH to get a promotion.

A Terrible Glory by James Donavan points out the historical fact that other than the Fetterman massacre no unit of Custer's size had ever been defeated by the Indians until LBH and he had no real reason to assume that that battle would be any different.

Also it points out that it was a common tactic of the time to invade the village and take noncombatant hostages in order to force surrender and speculates that Custer was trying to do just that.

In any case both books are worth the read if for no other reason than that they paint Custer in a different light than the common view.

The Custer Reader by Paul Andrew Hutton ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Bighorn - the Last Great Battle of the American West by James Donovan ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

FWIW after reading A Terrible Glory I think it's very likely that there were survivors but that once they got away they kept running and kept their mouths shut for fear of being labled Cowards, Deserters or Crackpots

 

[reddogge]

"Fortune Favors the Bold."
Custer was bold.
He had courage.
Any Army leadership course one attends will have this painted on a wall somewhere-
"Even a poorly conceived plan, executed with vigor and determination, is far more likely to succeed than taking no decisive action." (many slight variants exist)
Again, Fortune Favors the Bold.

I also believe he was such an arrogant narcissist (translation= he was 'bout haf nuts) that he believed he was immortal and destined to be President of the US after he pacified the plains.

No doubt he was brilliant in the CW, but show me a strategy he wrote. He simply engaged. He hit hard and fast.
Fortune favors the bold......

He did stop Stuart at Gettysburg, and lost more men than any other union Cav unit in the battle.
Fortune favors the bold.

At the LBH, he DID quickly devise a strategy. A very poor one.
His troops and horses were exhausted, hungry, and thirsty. The Crow scouts said it was the biggest village they had ever seen, with the biggest pony herd they had ever seen. He ignored them, and almost every one deserted rather than ride into certain annihilation with him. He did no recon, and did not assess the field after totally ignoring the intel he had.
Fortune favors the bold.
So, he simply divided his command, sending Reno straight in, and PROMISED to support him.
He then changed his mind and decided to flank the village and hit the rear while they were looking at Reno.
So, he willingly engaged a massively overwhelming force (the scout intel) with exhausted and hungry men and horses and no real strategy other than to hit and hit hard and fast like he had always done.
Fortune did NOT favor the bold that day.

It can be argued that he had disobeyed Terry's orders to wait for Terry before attacking.

Look at his actions on the Wash-ita. A rather useless massacre, and he left the field without even trying to determine the fate of Elliot and about 20 troopers. He also reported a phony body count.

Did you know he was court-martialed for being AWOL because he took off when he missed his wife?

I won't even get into his publicized political exploits and insubordination to Grant.

True, officers in the 7th seemed to be sharply divided into two groups-
>sycophants who worshiped him, thinking he might become the POTUS. (I feel the brass coming to me!)
>the rest who despised, hated, or reviled him to various degrees because of the events at the Wash-ita and his hunger for adoration and glory.

If I met him in person, I suspect I'd be ready to depart from him forever or just shoot him inside of 30 minutes. More likely 15 minutes.
He was a despicable fool who finally met his destiny. The tragedy is that he took well over 200 troops with him.

Great assessment Handejector and jives with every book, account and visit to the battlefield I've ever done.

 

[brucev]

Re: OP. Not much of an opinion on Custer except simply to say not impressed with him. His record as such up to the point of that day at the LBH... irrelevant, about like discussing old scores with teams that have long since changed personnel.

Have walked over the LBH battlefield and associated areas. Custer was not new to the field. He knew what to do. He didn't do it. It's that simple. He knew what to do. He didn't do it.

That day at the LBH he knowingly led a very small unit against overwhelmingly superior force. It was not an act of courage. It was not an act of ignorance. It was an act of arrogant self-assumption and stupidity. He got what he deserved. Sadly his failure of leadership resulted in his getting everyone killed who ended up having to stand with him that day.

 

[olm911]

Why do modern "experts" run down ALL Custers actions? Patton called him the greatest Cav leader in the US Army (except for Patton..of course)

I remember that from AIT at Ft. Knox . Inscription over Patton museum door.

If my posts get a little foggy sorry. Combo of methadone, cancer & other drugs

I am no expert but he was friends with Sherman and that's all the reason I need to dislike him.

 

[zzzippper]

The troopers were also outgunned. They were issued single shot rifles while the indians had repeaters. A line from Unforgiven, "I don't don't wanta get kilt for lacka shootin' back."

A writing style question, should "indians" be capitalized?