MOONDAWG
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Yellow Hair?
Being Native American, I rooted for the Sioux...
Being Native American, I rooted for the Sioux...
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Yellow hair
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finesse_r
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Nothing wose that a combination of arrogance and stupidity
While both Patton and Custer were ego maniacs, and both talked the talk, Patton always also walked the walk, whereas, Custer in the end did not walk the walk.
When you flaunt your ignorance and superior intelligence as Custer did, and then you ultimately fail in a huge way, do not expect the critics to be kind!!!
The type of arrogance, swagger, and bragging that the man displayed for his entire career, really did not make him any friends. Then when he has the most spectacular defeat of the union army against the Indians, his bad press is exactly what he deserves. Arrogance is second only to stupidity as a fatal flaw in a military leader. When you combine the two, such men often turn certain victory into devastating defeat.
While Custer was not stupid in the classical sense, his decisions were certainly flawed and could not have been any worse if he were stupid in his final battle.
I am a great admirer of General Robert E. Lee as a human and as a military leader, but his early brilliance was overshadowed to a large degree in my mind by the decisions he made at Gettysburg. His high risk gambit in this battle may well have cost the South our freedom. Still since he was a true gentleman and marvelous human being, his press was much better than Custer's press. Even if in the end he suffered nearly as great a defeat. In my opinion Lee had no right to risk so much on such a flawed battle plan, I wonder if he was not just worn out by that time in the War. I was surprised that he was not relieved of his command once he refused to change the battle plan.
How any son of the south can read the details of Pickets charge with a dry eye is beyond me. The very best of what was left of the Confederacy was sacrificed to the hubris of a tired and flawed General Lee.
In the end, neither Custer or Lee was of the caliber of Andrew Jackson, George Washington, or Sam Houston, when it came to military genius. These men were also in battles where they were desperate and outnumbered. Yet, they refused to commit their troops, until they had the perfect situation to give them the strategic advantage they needed to WIN.
I have no love for any of the Union army officers, but other than Sherman, Custer ranks at the bottom of my disgusting personality list of high ranking military personnel in that general time in history.
The importance that any military leader have excellent judgment and knowledge can not be overstated. That is why politics should not be allowed to ever enter the military selection process. When political appointees rise in the ranks, the entire military is weakened beyond belief.
While both Patton and Custer were ego maniacs, and both talked the talk, Patton always also walked the walk, whereas, Custer in the end did not walk the walk.
When you flaunt your ignorance and superior intelligence as Custer did, and then you ultimately fail in a huge way, do not expect the critics to be kind!!!
The type of arrogance, swagger, and bragging that the man displayed for his entire career, really did not make him any friends. Then when he has the most spectacular defeat of the union army against the Indians, his bad press is exactly what he deserves. Arrogance is second only to stupidity as a fatal flaw in a military leader. When you combine the two, such men often turn certain victory into devastating defeat.
While Custer was not stupid in the classical sense, his decisions were certainly flawed and could not have been any worse if he were stupid in his final battle.
I am a great admirer of General Robert E. Lee as a human and as a military leader, but his early brilliance was overshadowed to a large degree in my mind by the decisions he made at Gettysburg. His high risk gambit in this battle may well have cost the South our freedom. Still since he was a true gentleman and marvelous human being, his press was much better than Custer's press. Even if in the end he suffered nearly as great a defeat. In my opinion Lee had no right to risk so much on such a flawed battle plan, I wonder if he was not just worn out by that time in the War. I was surprised that he was not relieved of his command once he refused to change the battle plan.
How any son of the south can read the details of Pickets charge with a dry eye is beyond me. The very best of what was left of the Confederacy was sacrificed to the hubris of a tired and flawed General Lee.
In the end, neither Custer or Lee was of the caliber of Andrew Jackson, George Washington, or Sam Houston, when it came to military genius. These men were also in battles where they were desperate and outnumbered. Yet, they refused to commit their troops, until they had the perfect situation to give them the strategic advantage they needed to WIN.
I have no love for any of the Union army officers, but other than Sherman, Custer ranks at the bottom of my disgusting personality list of high ranking military personnel in that general time in history.
The importance that any military leader have excellent judgment and knowledge can not be overstated. That is why politics should not be allowed to ever enter the military selection process. When political appointees rise in the ranks, the entire military is weakened beyond belief.
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handejector
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A common myth that has been repeated often enough to revise history.
Yeah, yeah, I know about the archeological search after the burn off. Faulty science.
Everyone who wandered through there for the next century could have been plinking and left brass.
Where were all those repeaters 8 days earlier when Crook held the field on the Rosebud?
Where were all those repeaters when the Indians couldn't take Reno hill after dispatching Custer?
The fact is, it was VERY hard for the nation to accept a defeat of the famous hero at the hands of a stone age people.
Soooooooooo, they must have cheated and had repeaters!
Indian participants interviewed as old men said most fought with their bows.
Indirect arrow fire from the ravines probably accounted for most wounds.
They also said the battle with Custer's troops lasted "about as long as it takes a man to eat his dinner."
Four + decades after the battle, why would they lie about their weapons?
the ringo kid
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Id completely forgot about Wade Hamptons Legion. Gotta toss another name into the pot with Nathan Bedford Forrest.
the ringo kid
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Why? It turns out that Sherman--wasnt the monster that history portrays. And THIS--is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Southerner (ME). Sherman followed orders (Atlanta and such) but had no stomach for those particuar orders. I grew up loathing Sherman--untill I read enough to "see" through some erred or biased writings. That taught me a big lesson to not just take one PoV on anything--and to do my own research when possible--to comeup with my own conclusions. Ive been wrong more than once--and dont like it.
)
That final mistake......
He had an outstanding record, but that final mistake cost him. Dividing his forces wasn't a mistake, but dividing his forces in a way to put them out of communication with each other for an extended period was fatal. By the time the forces rejoined, all there was to see was dead bodies. Custer possible could have held off until he knew the other half of his command were in position, but the Injuns surely already knew he was there and weren't surprised as much as Custer was.
Famous last words:
"Where did all of those ****ing Indians come from?"
On Sherman. He did what he had to do to end the war. Period.
He had an outstanding record, but that final mistake cost him. Dividing his forces wasn't a mistake, but dividing his forces in a way to put them out of communication with each other for an extended period was fatal. By the time the forces rejoined, all there was to see was dead bodies. Custer possible could have held off until he knew the other half of his command were in position, but the Injuns surely already knew he was there and weren't surprised as much as Custer was.
Famous last words:
"Where did all of those ****ing Indians come from?"
On Sherman. He did what he had to do to end the war. Period.
zzzippper
Member
I certainly am not going to argue with the Big Hairy Ape but this contradicts every single thing I've ever read. We can only work with the information at hand.
I have a hard time with the concept that all or even a majority of the shell casings found after the big burn off were from modern shooters who were just plinking. I'd be curious to find out how many modern shell casings were in the mix.
One of the things discussed in just about every book I've ever read about LBH is that the Indians had no concept of acceptable losses. That is to say that they didn't feel that they were under any obligation to take Reno's position "at any cost".
When faced with an unfavorable tactical position (attacking uphill against an entrenched enemy) they decided it wasn't worth it and went and broke down their village and left.
That's (IMO) where "all those repeaters" were when it was time to take Reno.
cmort666
Member
Given the plethora of Henry and Spencer cases that have been found, I find it difficult to believe that people were running around the battlefield long after the fact, firing hard to get ammunition, out of antique rifles.
The truth is, that while the Indians weren't some group of 19th century Panzergrenadiers, armed with the StG44s of their day, they were armed with a variety of firearms, from muzzle loaders to Henrys and Winchesters. They VASTLY outnumbered the 7th Cavalry and SOME of them had repeating rifles, whereas pretty much NONE of the regular troopers did. And of course the combination of too soft .45-70 cases and poor extractor design in the Trapdoor Springfield only cut down on the Army's rate of fire.
Throw in Custer's recklessness and they were boned going in.
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jag312
Member
Marcus Reno; suspended from the Army for two years for drunkenness and immorality involving the wife of a subordinate officer. Then he finally got booted out of the Army for drunkenness and getting caught peeping through a window at a 16 year old daughter of the commanding officer as she was getting undressed.
Tom Custer; earned two Medals of Honor during the Civil War. He was known to be extremely brutal to Indians. He once slammed a rifle butt into the face of Sioux Chief Rain In The Face. This prompted Rain In The Face to swear that one day he would cut out Tom Custer's heart. Did he actually do it after the battle at the Little Big Horn? Some say he did, and some say he didn't.
Tom Custer; earned two Medals of Honor during the Civil War. He was known to be extremely brutal to Indians. He once slammed a rifle butt into the face of Sioux Chief Rain In The Face. This prompted Rain In The Face to swear that one day he would cut out Tom Custer's heart. Did he actually do it after the battle at the Little Big Horn? Some say he did, and some say he didn't.
The threat was to cut Tom Custer's heart out and eat it, which was actually a compliment because it was saying he wanted it take Custer's bravery for himself.
Rain In The Face later denied that he actually ate Custer's heart but perhaps he didn't think it was wise to admit to doing it given that he was on the losing side at that point.
cmort666
Member
Martin Cruz-Smith ("Gorky Park") wrote a novel called "The Indians Won" in which the Indians truly organize, obtain modern weapons from Europe and defeat the U.S. Army.
There's no absolute reason, apart from the Indians' lack of grasp of the reality of the greater world, why it couldn't have happened...
handejector
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In the 80s, I had read virtually every book written about the Last Stand.
I have quite a collection.
Unfortunately, they are remotely stored. I hope to retrieve them in the near future.
One item I'd like to share is the original volume of the Congressional Record of 1876. It contains the report to Congress on the battle, map of graves, etc.
In this thread, I recommended two books as "must reads".
http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/394621-book-recommendations-little-bighorn.html#post138117631
The Indian accounts are very interesting. Marquis has a lot of insight also.
Kind of strange that the only real witnesses' testimony is usually ignored.
I don't recall many, if any frontal assaults on Reno Hill. They were simply pinned down the whole time.
Sustained repeater fire would have made it real hard on the Water-bearers.
Y'all do know who they were, don'tcha?
Again- where were all the repeaters 8 days before on the Rosebud when Crook held his position?
Where did the Indians get all those repeaters when they had been confined on the rez just weeks or months before? They had no rights, so they were searched at will. There were many rats among them more than willing to trade intel on other Indians, like those who had guns.
DO remember that they were fugitives the moment they left the rez. They weren't primarily out seeking repeating guns. They were running, and HIDING for their lives, and the lives of their women and children. They were trying to lay low.
YES- I know they always had the ability to loot their victims, but they weren't always armed with the latest and the greatest either.
So, did they have this arsenal hidden on the rez, or suddenly acquire them in the next few months while running and hiding and trying to AVOID whites?
Back then, WalMart wouldn't sell to em!
Where did they buy all their ammo?
The Army and the nation was distressed and perplexed by the defeat.
REMEMBER that the word first truly reached the East in any detail about the 4th of July on the nation's Centennial!
So, how willing were we to believe that a bunch of stone agers with bows had just defeated the Fair-Haired Boy, the GREAT Cavalry hero of The Civil War, with sticks and stones?
SHOCKING!
UNBELIEVABLE!
It CAN'T be so!
Propaganda was as alive back then as it is today.
On the forensic cases-
I am not talking about relatively modern plinking using ammo worth many dollars per round.
I'm talking about the FACT that the battlefield was a MUCH visited place in the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s.
The bodies of Custer's troops had been stripped and mutilated. The burials that HOT June-July were not completed for several days. Don't forget the dead horses laying around.
NOT pleasant duty, and it was performed rather hastily by the relief column. They still had Indians to chase and wounded to evacuate, and the choppers weren't flying that week.
It was, in fact, the protests of the many civilian visitors about exposed bones that made the Feds go back and rebury the troops!
Keep reading with a skeptical heart and mind.
Remember that a bowman can shoot over a hill and stick a man he can't see.
Check out the many current Greek, Roman, 300, movies showing arrow volleys.
The Indians were able to reach the entire field at Custer's position from the gulleys and ravines with arrow fire. INDIRECT arrow fire. Shoot enough arrows UP long enough and you will hit every spot on the field. Custer's men had never been taught how to form the turtle and they had left their shields at home.
I also believe the field was finally taken for the most part, but in small sections, by rushes from the gullies and ravines in close quarter combat with what guns they had, bows, lances, knives, and clubs.
It was a panic rout for the most part.
They were retreating from the village under hot pursuit of many mounted foes, and the Indian Infantry was following the Indian cavalry at the double time.
The troops were not favorably deployed in an orderly manner on Custer Hill.
There were many ravines and coulees that let the Indians get close.
They were shot with guns and arrows- both direct and indirect, and then overrun by numbers they could not handle even if every man was shooting with his Colt fully loaded.
Their bodies were being stripped within an hour.
I have quite a collection.
Unfortunately, they are remotely stored. I hope to retrieve them in the near future.
One item I'd like to share is the original volume of the Congressional Record of 1876. It contains the report to Congress on the battle, map of graves, etc.
In this thread, I recommended two books as "must reads".
http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/394621-book-recommendations-little-bighorn.html#post138117631
I failed to tell you that Marquis was a rez MD in the early 1900's.
He interviewed some of the native participants in the battle! Those interviews will tell you much you won't see elsewhere.
The Indian accounts are very interesting. Marquis has a lot of insight also.
Kind of strange that the only real witnesses' testimony is usually ignored.
The Indians occupied higher ground than Reno Hill.
I don't recall many, if any frontal assaults on Reno Hill. They were simply pinned down the whole time.
Sustained repeater fire would have made it real hard on the Water-bearers.
Y'all do know who they were, don'tcha?
Again- where were all the repeaters 8 days before on the Rosebud when Crook held his position?
Where did the Indians get all those repeaters when they had been confined on the rez just weeks or months before? They had no rights, so they were searched at will. There were many rats among them more than willing to trade intel on other Indians, like those who had guns.
DO remember that they were fugitives the moment they left the rez. They weren't primarily out seeking repeating guns. They were running, and HIDING for their lives, and the lives of their women and children. They were trying to lay low.
YES- I know they always had the ability to loot their victims, but they weren't always armed with the latest and the greatest either.
So, did they have this arsenal hidden on the rez, or suddenly acquire them in the next few months while running and hiding and trying to AVOID whites?
Back then, WalMart wouldn't sell to em!
Where did they buy all their ammo?
The Army and the nation was distressed and perplexed by the defeat.
REMEMBER that the word first truly reached the East in any detail about the 4th of July on the nation's Centennial!
So, how willing were we to believe that a bunch of stone agers with bows had just defeated the Fair-Haired Boy, the GREAT Cavalry hero of The Civil War, with sticks and stones?
SHOCKING!
UNBELIEVABLE!
It CAN'T be so!
Propaganda was as alive back then as it is today.
On the forensic cases-
I am not talking about relatively modern plinking using ammo worth many dollars per round.
I'm talking about the FACT that the battlefield was a MUCH visited place in the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s.
The bodies of Custer's troops had been stripped and mutilated. The burials that HOT June-July were not completed for several days. Don't forget the dead horses laying around.
NOT pleasant duty, and it was performed rather hastily by the relief column. They still had Indians to chase and wounded to evacuate, and the choppers weren't flying that week.
It was, in fact, the protests of the many civilian visitors about exposed bones that made the Feds go back and rebury the troops!
Keep reading with a skeptical heart and mind.
Remember that a bowman can shoot over a hill and stick a man he can't see.
Check out the many current Greek, Roman, 300, movies showing arrow volleys.
The Indians were able to reach the entire field at Custer's position from the gulleys and ravines with arrow fire. INDIRECT arrow fire. Shoot enough arrows UP long enough and you will hit every spot on the field. Custer's men had never been taught how to form the turtle and they had left their shields at home.
I also believe the field was finally taken for the most part, but in small sections, by rushes from the gullies and ravines in close quarter combat with what guns they had, bows, lances, knives, and clubs.
It was a panic rout for the most part.
They were retreating from the village under hot pursuit of many mounted foes, and the Indian Infantry was following the Indian cavalry at the double time.
The troops were not favorably deployed in an orderly manner on Custer Hill.
There were many ravines and coulees that let the Indians get close.
They were shot with guns and arrows- both direct and indirect, and then overrun by numbers they could not handle even if every man was shooting with his Colt fully loaded.
Their bodies were being stripped within an hour.
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I grew up with Custer the hero, as I got older it became fashionable to perceive Custer as the idiot portrayed by Richard Mulligan in Little Big Man. I think realistically the truth lies in the middle.
No one knows for sure how Custer's battle played out. Some reports from Reno's position say they heard heavy gun fire for over two hours. Some say less than one.
I've heard that Custer committed suicide I've heard he was given a Coup De Grace by the Indians. I've heard that he wasn't scalped out of respect, I've heard he wasn't scalped because his hair was cut short and he was going bald, I've also heard that there were so many bodies to loot that they simply got tired of it or that they were too busy torturing survivors. (FWIW I still believe that there were some survivors who got away and decided to just keep their mouths shut and start over Frank Finkel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
The fact that Custer was outnumbered and overwhelmed is self evident as is the fact that he sorely underestimated his opponent but I don't believe that he was just some egotistical idiot that rode blindly to his death.
Again, I believe he based his plan of attack on a tactic that had worked for him before not realizing he was going to be facing what amounted to a human wave. (He wouldn't be the first or last commander to make up his battle plan based on faulty Intel).
I also believe that a lot of what we "know" about the battle was told to us by Army officers who were doing what Army officers do best when things don't go according to plan (covering their collective asses and blaming the guy who couldn't tell his side of the story) One of the things ATG disscusses is the concept that Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. Apparently (according to the author) the written orders still exist and Custer was expected to attack the Indians as soon as he found them
I want to recommend A Terrible Glory again because it's one of the most neutral (doesn't portray Custer as the fair haired boy general or the idiot) accounts I've ever read.
No one knows for sure how Custer's battle played out. Some reports from Reno's position say they heard heavy gun fire for over two hours. Some say less than one.
I've heard that Custer committed suicide I've heard he was given a Coup De Grace by the Indians. I've heard that he wasn't scalped out of respect, I've heard he wasn't scalped because his hair was cut short and he was going bald, I've also heard that there were so many bodies to loot that they simply got tired of it or that they were too busy torturing survivors. (FWIW I still believe that there were some survivors who got away and decided to just keep their mouths shut and start over Frank Finkel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
The fact that Custer was outnumbered and overwhelmed is self evident as is the fact that he sorely underestimated his opponent but I don't believe that he was just some egotistical idiot that rode blindly to his death.
Again, I believe he based his plan of attack on a tactic that had worked for him before not realizing he was going to be facing what amounted to a human wave. (He wouldn't be the first or last commander to make up his battle plan based on faulty Intel).
I also believe that a lot of what we "know" about the battle was told to us by Army officers who were doing what Army officers do best when things don't go according to plan (covering their collective asses and blaming the guy who couldn't tell his side of the story) One of the things ATG disscusses is the concept that Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. Apparently (according to the author) the written orders still exist and Custer was expected to attack the Indians as soon as he found them
I want to recommend A Terrible Glory again because it's one of the most neutral (doesn't portray Custer as the fair haired boy general or the idiot) accounts I've ever read.
handejector
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After the rout (battle), I would not be surprised to hear the Indians, including youngsters and women who had not participated, were running around the field yelling or shouting or singing tribute songs while firing their own guns, PLUS the guns of the troops they were now picking up.
Does anyone ever see a lot of gunfire on the news in Muslim countries when the crowd is excited and shouting in the streets?
Same concept. Graham mentions that may account for the overestimated length of the battle some of Reno's men gave.
As far as no one knowing what happened, I heard quite a few Indians survived.
I bet they knew at least their own personal part.
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