Yesterday's haul...

[Truckman]

At the HGCA show in Humble, I noticed S&W asking prices migrating in a generally lower direction, mostly from those who participate strictly for commercial success...I valued what I brought in to walk the aisles with higher than others, so I expected to go home with them...I did meet one of our members here with whom I worked a successful trade for one of my .38/44 Outdoorsman models against his 1948 vintage K-22 Masterpiece...I had never shot it, so I hope he is happy with it...

A vendor of my long-standing acquaintance had two .22/32 HFT's which he has had under glass for a long time...Since I am drifting my focus in a generally older direction I thought I'd see how anxious he was to get them out of his sight...Turns out my guess was right, and he now has some extra real estate in his display case...In looking at them today, I question my own judgment a little, but I'll ask some help in identifying what I have...

The oldest, and also poorest condition of the two, is S/N 163991...Going by my SCSW4 it's one of the earliest of the HFT's...All the metal numbers match, but whatever number was on the right panel of the two-screw extension stocks is lost to history...The left panel does have 1796 stamped in the butt, but I would need help deciphering what that represents...Unfortunately for me the rear sight elevation adjustment screw is missing and the front screw holding the leaf down has been replaced with the wrong one...This sight also has a drift adjustable blade held in place by a screw at the right rear, something I don't remember seeing in the past...

I'll include some pictures here to help identify what I have, and if others are needed for correct identification, just say so...Thanks for your help......Ben

 

[Oldengineer]

Ben,
I so enjoy your posts. Thank you for your contributions to this forum.

Tom H.

 

[Truckman]

Ben,
I so enjoy your posts. Thank you for your contributions to this forum.

Tom H.

So maybe I'm not really quite as much a nuisance as my ex-wives suggested?...What a relief!......Ben

 

[glowe]

At the HGCA show in Humble, I noticed S&W asking prices migrating in a generally lower direction, mostly from those who participate strictly for commercial success . . .

I have been collecting early S&Ws for a very long time and see the exact opposite as to the direction of values of these Curios & Relics. I keep a record of my purchase prices and those numbers have absolutely been rising without let up. It is now near impossible to find a pristine 22/32, for example, under $1,000, even though this model is a slower mover compared to early K and N frames. 10 years ago they would have been under $500. Gun Shows are notoriously over-priced and maybe those sellers are realizing this after a decade or two of trying to sell for way more than what their inventory was worth.

The sight your 22/32 should have is the second in the image below. Information from Neal's research.

 

[Truckman]

Thanks for your input, Gary, it's always highly valued...Here are better closeups of what I have...Any comments at all bring me more knowledge than I started with......Ben

 

[Oldengineer]

So maybe I'm not really quite as much a nuisance as my ex-wives suggested?...What a relief!......Ben

There must be a reason she is your EX. Remember that even the thinnest pancake has two sides!

 

[S&W ucla]

1796 is 1 of approx 3000 of the first guns made. They quit stamping those at some point early on. You might can see SN in pencil inside of grip, or not. Rear sight was broken or lost and someone cobbled that one together. If you are lucky, they made the sight to fit the milled area. If not, they filed the frame to fit the sight I've had a few and they were all great shooters, neat guns!

 

[Truckman]

1796 is 1 of approx 3000 of the first guns made. They quit stamping those at some point early on. You might can see SN in pencil inside of grip, or not. Rear sight was broken or lost and someone cobbled that one together. If you are lucky, they made the sight to fit the milled area. If not, they filed the frame to fit the sight I've had a few and they were all great shooters, neat guns!

Thanks for the knowledge...You are correct about the rear sight, it's of unknown manufacture...I got it off successfully, and it's unnumbered, there are no file marks on the frame...If I can find a replacement sight assembly, I'll do that, or I'll find a screw to adjust elevation and reinstall it...The gun intrigued me because of the very low S/N...I already have a few of these guns, and I think it's time I lettered some...The penciled number inside the right stock panel is unreadable no matter what light, angle or magnification I use......Ben

 

[JSR III]

The left butt stock imprint indicates that this .22/32 HFT was the 1796 gun assembled. According to my database, this gun should have shipped in late 1912 or early 1913.

Guns from this period will typically have a Paine front sight with the tiny U notch rear. It appears that your gun was damaged and a prior owner tried to manufacture a replacement. They will have the 2 screw oversize target style stocks with gold medallions, a large mushroom style extractor rod knob and a small S&W logo on the left side of the frame.

From my years of researching this model I offer the following:

The first run was for 1050 units of which Bekeart received 294 starting on 6/7/1911. The first shipments to other dealers began on 6/16/1911. It is my belief that these 1050 guns had an imprinted stock number between 1 and 1050 and in my database I have recorded a low of 1 and a high of 1018 which appears to back up my theory. I have all of these serial numbers recorded in the database after researching the factory records at Dr. Jink's home office.

The second run was in the 160's however these guns came from members and online auctions and sales so the list is not complete. The first number I have recorded is 161141 and the highest is 165954. I have recorded about 100 guns in this section. The lowest recorded stock imprint number seen is 1098 and the highest is 2071. If my assumption is correct that this is a second run of 1050 units then the imprint numbers should fall between 1051 and 2100 and so far they do.

The next run that I have recorded are the 490 M.W. Robinson guns that were shipped in 5 shipments between 1/31/1914 and 3/19/1914. This run however was all consecutive starting with 207926 and ending with 208415 and all going to Robinson. Stock imprint numbers should therefore fall between 2101 and 2590 and the lowest recorded is 2117 and the highest is 2582 so again these numbers fall in line with my theory.

The next gun listed in my database is 220110 that shipped probably in mid 1914 does not have a stock imprint number and I never see any after the Robinson guns except a couple of fliers that are most likely wearing an earlier guns stocks. I can surmise this because they show up wearing gold medallion stocks when guns were being shipped with stocks without medallions.

Hope that helps...

You stated that you purchased 2 of this model. Could you post the details of this gun so I may add it to my database? Thanks....

 

[glowe]

My guess is that the factory sight was broken at some point and a non-S&W sight was installed. That gun should have been a good buy since factory sights are all but impossible to find today.

 

[Truckman]

Guns from this period will typically have a Paine front sight with the tiny U notch rear. It appears that your gun was damaged and a prior owner tried to manufacture a replacement. They will have the 2 screw oversize target style stocks with gold medallions, a large mushroom style extractor rod knob and a small S&W logo on the left side of the frame.

You stated that you purchased 2 of this model. Could you post the details of this gun so I may add it to my database? Thanks....

My feeble knowledge bank fails me at remembering what a Paine front sight looks like, but I can confirm that the sight does have a gold bead...That makes the replacement rear sight with its square notch rather inappropriate...I'm going to get a few of my .22/32's lettered shortly including this one...

Stand by for details and photos of the other one that joined the flock yesterday......Ben

 

[Truckman]

As promised data and pics on my second HFT from yesterday...This one is a bit newer with S/N 496695...I'm guessing production somewhere between 1922 and 1935 given the Made In USA on the frame but no recessed chambers in the cylinder...Frame, barrel and cylinder numbers are a match, but I haven't gone any further in disassembly so can't verify the rest...I notice it also has the stepped grip frame such as the Regulation Police has...The grips are two screw extensions with larger silver medallions than the gold ones on the earlier gun...They are in very nice condition with no number on the butt...The right panel has some stampings consistent with a serial number, but I cannot make out the numbers at all...

Here are a few pics...Others on request......Ben

 

[JSR III]

That gun should have shipped in the first quarter of 1929 according to my database. Silver medallion stocks do not show up until guns reached the 500,000 serial numbers but there are never guarantees with S&W. During the 20's these guns typically shipped with non medallion stocks of either the 2 screw variety or those resembling regulation police style. According to Dr. Jinks the change to the regulation police style stocks was a cost saving measure so that several different models of the day could wear the same stocks. It didn't last long and in 1923 Harold Wesson issued an order to return to the 2 screw target style. I am guessing that shooters preferred the larger stocks for target work however by today's standards they are still small.

I can't quite make out the front and rear sights on my small monitor however it appears to have a Paine front and U notch rear. Close up photos would help to be sure. As glowe stated these I frame rear sites are harder to find than hen's teeth however if the rear site is still mostly intact I may know where you can acquire a replacement rear sight blade.

 

[CH4]

Love a happy gun show ending.

 

[Truckman]

James, I'll try for better sight pics of both guns tomorrow...If replacement rear sights for the older gun are hard to locate, then i may look for a screw to fit the rear threaded hole, and maybe a better looking screw to secure the leaf at the front...The finish is challenging at best, but mechanically it seems sound...I want to letter it anyway just because it's so near the beginning of the run, but I'll likely find a home for it with someone who just wants a shooter...Sight pics tomorrow......Ben

 

[Truckman]

As promised, James, here are some closeup shots of both sights...The first two are the older gun showing a gold bead...The next two are the newer gun which to my eyes has gold something in the sight picture...Last pic is the rear sight on the newer gun which definitely has the U-notch......Ben

 

[handejector]

I think this is an ivory bead---

 

[Truckman]

I think this is an ivory bead---

If I had the eyesight of my youth - well, I probably wouldn't be much better off than now...But if it is, it is...I'll bow to the judgement of you youngsters on this...And thanks, Lee, other opinions are why I posted this thread......Ben

 

[JSR III]

There are a bunch of front sight variations listed in my database. Sheard bead sights is one of the more popular versions. Unfortunately the factory records don't always reflect the name of the sight and may only say bead or narrow blade. Since these features can be changed over time even a letter may not tell you what you want to know.

The auction or member supplied photos are sometimes not clear and those sights with the manufacturer's name printed on the side can not be read in the photo. The bulk of the .22/32 HFT front sights were either Paine or Patridge with a variety of others thrown in.

 

[Keith Brown]

Truckman, nice guns, I have a couple myself and they are a challenge to shoot but plenty fun !