Forgive me if this gets a little wordy, but though I've been reloading rifle for many years, this is my first foray into the realm of pistol. I have a S&W Frontier DA revolver with a 4" barrel. I've ordered up 100 rnds. of the Fiocchi ammo for it so I'll be plinking for a while before I get to the reload stage. It'll take me a while to pay down the costs of the new items and then start looking at components for reloading. I have one major question. Given that smokeless powder was around when this pistol was made, has anyone loaded smokeless in these particular revolvers? I'm fully aware of the inherent weakness of a break-top vs. solid frame pistol, but I'm curious as to a maximum safe load for this.

I do use just 8 grains of blackpowder behind a .429 sized 200 grain bullet. It seems very little but it works very good on 25 meter with a Smith and Wesson Russian and New model 3. I was really suprised by the accuracy. Do fill the gap in the case between the powder and bullet with Cous Cous. This is a Maroccan granulate. Works very well. It is not burning and ad no extra gass to the detonation. I do use Swiss blackpowder

Thank you. I was planning on staying away from black powder. I'm looking at Pyrodex or Hodgdon Trail Boss. That would keep me away from having to use a filler in the cases. If it turns out that a safe smokeless powder load is possible, given the date of the pistol, I may look at that as well.

Fiocchi is not my favorite brand. but I sure can reuse the brass when there is nothhing else available.

You may want to avoid it but, for a turn of the Century(XIXth to XXth) revolver i woul go with blackpowder. Thuer advice sounds good, If the piece is in good condition I would go as up as13 grains.

By the way. If you got a modern revolver in .44spl or .44Mag, fire those Fiocchis in one of them.

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Expect the unexpected

Fiocchi is all that's commercially available to me. I've heard it's good brass and as I get the money together, I'll buy bullets, propellant, dies, and primers and start stuffing my own. Fiocchi gives a MV of 820 and ME of 369 ft.lbs. I'd like to work up a load with Trail boss or Pyrodex that packs more "oomph" but stays within the safe range.

Better use the "real stuff" than Pyrodex.

Your revolver will thank you.

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Expect the unexpected

Trail Boss is what I use in my modern production N0.3 S&W's in 44 Russian. Hodgdon's web sight lists 3 bullets for 44 Russian 185, 200, & 220. If you look at the loading tables you will see that you can load any of them with a single scoop of Trail Boss in the 3.3 to 3.5 grain area. So when you can, pick up some Trail Boss, some Large Pistol primers (I use Winchester), and Lead RNFP (Round Nose Flat Point) bullets. Most modern 44 loading dies will size and crimp from the short 44 Russian to the long 44 Mag, but some older dies won't crimp that short. (I have one old Lyman tong tool that says "44 S&W" that will do Russian and Special but not Mag!) These Trail Boss loads are in the 7000 to 10000 CUP pressure range, full power Black Powder will be around the 8000 CUPs area. Two rules, 1) Never compress Trail Boss & 2) always compress Black Powder! Not following these rules can result in massive pressure spikes that could hurt your gun or even you!

15 years ago I bought 500 of the "Top Brass" brand, The quality was so poor that in 3 shootings all 500 were destroyed (the few that were not, I threw away!) I have been using Starline since then with fine results. I have a few dozen of the Fiocchi, and much prefer the Starline!

If you were to use Black Powder of one of the substitutes, the case needs to be full, and that would be in the 20 grain area by volume, depending on the bullet. The Very first factory loads were 246 grain hollow base and later 200 grain solid base. The 246 grain bullet, loaded in the long obsolete balloon head cases, used 20 grains of FFFg Black Powder. With that long skirted Hollow base bullet, the reputation was very well deserved. With the tiny sights of my Number 3 S&W's My dad (at age 74) could shoot groups of 2" or smaller at 25 yards (My eyes were never as good as his!)

Last advise: Print this thread out and put it with your loading books, otherwise you will never find it when you need it!

Ivan

Ivan! You're a gem! That's the kind of information I was seeking. From what I've been able to gather thus far, here's my intent. I can get 240 gr. cast lead round nose, flat base bullets (.430 dia.) up here. I plan to go with Trail Boss and magnum pistol primers. The pistol is to accompany me when I'm bow hunting as some extra insurance against the "what if" scenarios. I'd like your opinion on a max safe load. Though most bear and other wildlife tend to avoid us, a buddy was once stalked by a wolf pack during a late evening walk back to hunt camp. Fortunately it was rifle season and he was armed. A shot in the air dispersed the pack and that was that. It's less the bears and wolves that concern than a rabid critter of some sort and I'd like to have the maximum safe punch with that load. I'd stick with the Fiocchi for plinking and fun. They claim a MV of 820 fps. and ME of 369 ft.lbs. for their factory ammo. I may also order some Starline brass, based on your recommendation. Once again, thank you.

I use Trail Boss or black powder for My .44 Russians.

BTW, the 'Frontier' was the name for the .44-40 chambering of your revolver. You have a .44DA

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Exmilcop: a century old top break handgun is not an ideal SD revolver, but that's what you have, that's what you use.

All current loading data is based on Cowboy Action Shooting sport and is for mild recoil. The data for your Fiocchi factory ammo was almost identical to the factory ammo when the gun was made. I think that is the maximum safe load! The loading data for HP38/WW231 is 4.8 grains and 842 fps and 11,000 CUP. I think that is pushing the limits of 44 Russian.

Ivan

They just marketed it as ".44 DA"? No model number or name?

No model numbers back then ...just names , 44 Double Action was the name .
Is yours an original or modern reproduction .
The reason I ask is the modern reproductions have improved steels , the originals are ...old and it would be best to reload these with black powder as black develops lower pressures .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Yup.

Edit. Even what we now know as a hand ejector second model 1917 only has D.A. 45 on it.

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Expect the unexpected

I no longer own any 44 Russian caliber Model 3s, but my preference was always to use either Clean Shot and later it was Trail Boss. There is probably not a load that I have not tried throug the years and if I was trying to impress my shooting buddies, I would use BP. Just shooting at the range, I relied on Clean Shot, since it is almost non-corrosive, but today there are other good black powder substitutes as well. I prefer it over Pyrodex, which can be quite corrosive. With BP, corrosion is caused by salts and sulfur residue, while Pyrodex produces an acid based corrosion by-product and the fouling is very hydroscopic. collecting moisture in the barrel and cylinder.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It's an original. Under Canadian law, if it was a modern reproduction, I'd have to register it and it would be subject to all the storage and transport conditions as a modern restricted firearm. For many of us up here, the only option for wilderness carry is a verifiable antique.

Gentlemen, you all have been most informative and I thank you. I'm pretty well set on what I'll pick up and use when I get to the reloading stage, but I do have one last question. Have any of you used .44 jacketed bullets in a .44 Russian. Loaded to factory spec, would a jacketed HP produce overpressure compared to a cast lead? My curiosity stems from idea that as a self-protection bush carry sidearm, I may get more lethality from a modern jacketed bullet.

There is absolutely no reason to consider jacketed bullets for this age revolver, and yes it is mostly agreed that copper plated bullets offer more resistance than lead, so they would add pressure. Copper is also much harder than lead and when mixed with powder by-products, there is a chance that it could wear the relatively soft steel barrels quicker than lead.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I agree completely!

Ivan

I may not have made myself clear about the jacketed bullets. I'm aware that metallurgy of the period was not up to current standards and care must be taken when shooting these old firearms. Trust me, if the idiotic Canadian gun laws permitted, I'd have a modern pistol for handy bush carry. I was wondering if anyone HAD pushed jacketed HP bullets through their antique pistol and what was the result. If it were doable, I'd like to have maybe 12 rounds of more lethal bullets as a deterrent and only shoot approved lead rounds for plinking and general use.

Personally I would not use regular 44 cal jacketed bullets...BUT if you can...slug the bore..if it is very close to 429 in size...you could try some jacketed 427 bullets for the 44-40. Just to use very occasionally. But make sure of the size some nowdays are still 429s..most are of about 200 gr. What if I may ask constitutes an antique in Canada? Is there a date of manufacture or what? My really nice SAA 38 WCF was made in 1900 and is NOT considered an antique firearm in the US

A lot of beasts have been done in with lead bullets .
Just use a 44 cal. bullet with a flat nose (round-flat or semi-wadcutter) for added "lethality" . Jacketed bullets will offer no advantage , the 44 Russian just can't be loaded to the velocity needed and for large critters (bears) you want/need penetration
to get the bullet into the vitals . Use a 240 grain Cast Lead bullet and a full charge of black powder or work up a smokeless powder load .
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has lots of loading data in it, 5 different bullets from 185 grs. to 245 grs with ten different smokeless powders.
Personally ... knowing what I know , I would assemble a heavy black powder load for the old Top Break ...just like it was designed for ... don't think black powder is weak... a heavy charge is hard to safely match with smokeless and will hit hard .
Good Luck ,
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Oh boy! Does THAT question open a can of worms! If a firearm is pre-1898 AND the ammunition is not READILY available, it's considered "antique". So, if my DA was in .44-40 or .45 Colt, I would have to register it since most sporting goods stores carry that ammo in a modern loading. Stupidly enough, if I had an antique cap-and-ball revolver in near pristine condition, it too is "antique". If I buy an modern exact replica by Pedersoli, or Armi San Marco, or Pietta, or whoever, then it must be registered. If I take my revolver into the bush, I must have it in an open carry holster. If I have a shoulder holster, I can be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. We have guys up here who take old .455 Webleys or French Mod.1873, shave the back of cylinder and adapt them to take .45 ACP in the 3 rnd. half-moon clips. Why (you may ask) when .45 ACP is a current cartridge? Sit down for this one! The moronic government functionaries who drafted the legislation didn't know the difference between ".45 Colt" and ".45 ACP". As a result, .45 Colt is deemed, for legislative purposes, to be a modern cartridge. The .45 ACP, not being on the list, it's ok to have an antique revolver adapted to chamber it. HAHAHAHAHAHA! One of my favourite quips; Q. What's a camel? A. A horse designed by a government commitee!

I've seen reload data for this caliber using Alliant Red Dot and Unique powders. Anybody had experience with these?

Hi,
What a great revolver you have!
You answered my curiosity regarding the Canada laws. I used to live in Mississauga, and was a member at the Burlington Rifle and Revolver Club. Yeah, I played all the permit games there!
Anyhow, here's one more vote for genuine black powder and Starline Brass. By the way, Swiss powder is the best! (Don't be disappointed if the Fiocchi doesn't hold out too long). Also, lead bullets give up nothing in performance, especially at 44 Russian velocities. For your uses, a SWC will serve well.
If you can, try to find a local bullet caster (unless you plan to cast) who can sell you "as cast" bullets that are unlubricated, and lube with a homemade lube. If you can get "as cast" bullets in the .431-432" range, that'll work great! I use a 50/50 blend of pure beeswax and olive oil. Melt the wax in a double boiler, then add the olive oil. Adjust the blend so that when cool, it has a consistency of firm peanut butter.
This stuff works great with black powder and makes clean up easier. You'll be surprised how straightforward cleaning is when you use boiling water methods.
By the way, the corrosive primers in old black powder ammo was far more harmful than the powder itself. Modern primers work great!

I'd like to suggest that you watch some YouTube videos by "Cap and Ball". There's a wealth of info on practical black powder uses that are historical and effective.

It is well known that most target shotgun powders are a great fit for BP revolvers. Fast burning powder with an early pressure peak similar to BP allows for loads that are safe, reliable, and produce similar velocities. Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 700X are all old tried and tested light shotgun powders that can be loaded similar to BP. Unique was around when everything was still BP and became one of the first to be used to replace black powder.

I have shot thousands of smokeless loads in BP guns and have tried all of the above powders. What one will find is that some combinations of bullet and powder may produce very good accuracy in one gun and not another so you might need to try a different powder or bullet for the next gun or caliber. My go to powder for BP guns is now Trail Boss, a high volume powder that does not allow double charging and gives very good results in both revolvers and rifles.

I might add that I have 5 pounds of BP and shoot it all the time, but regular trips to the range with a cartridge gun is not the time to show off with lots of smoke and lots of cleaning afterwards. Save it to impress your friends and fellow shooters.

I also have several flintlock rifles that I always shoot with BP, so I get plenty of smoke and smell when shooting them, especially when the wind is in my face.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I'm haunting several firearms sites, some for specific specialties, and collecting all the information I can. You gentlemen on this site have been stellar!!! I thank you all! I tend to experiment with my reloading rifle with different bullet/powder combos to see what yields the best results for each rifle. Given what I've read thus far, when I get to the reloading stage it'll be Starline brass (once the Fiocchi gives out), Trail Boss or Alliant powder, and magnum pistol primers. Though I'm a fan of RCBS, I may have to get Lee dies for my .44 Russian. The Bullet Barn has good lead cast .429 & .430 bullets in several weights and nose configurations. For Canada, their prices are pretty decent and 500 would pretty much set me up for the balance of my life and probably my nephew's as well. I plan to put a beefier and more modern set of grips on the pistol to fill my hand better and provide a more positive grip plus the fact that beefier grips will be more aesthetically pleasing. I'll keep the worn originals put by and may even replace those with a set in better condition.

Don't forget to try the original bullet design for this caliber, a .429" round-nose, 246 grain. Also, I do not think you need magnum primers. I have never owned any and reload to almost 100% big bangs.

Lastly, your original set of stocks should have a serial number stamped on the inside of the right stock, if so I would not be too anxious to replace them.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I'm a pretty handy woodworker and the modification to the new set of grips to make them fit will be only to the wood. I'd never dream of getting rid of the factory original grips. They'd just be put by and the new grips would be tweaked for comfort and use.

I agree with Glowe, standard, not magnum primers! I use standard WLR with 60 to 65 grains of black powder in my 45-70 rifle! Some Smokeless rifle powders are hard to ignite in cold temperatures and need them! My 338 Lapua uses 104 grains of US869 and need them (Fed 215M primer) but a friends 50-140 Sharps ignites almost 140 grains of FFg with a WLR!

So to recap, a WLP primer will give complete and probably the most accurate ignition!

Ivan

DO not own a 44 Russian and have no intention of ever owning a revolver chambered in one. That being said, this has been an absolutely fascinating read just for educational and historic purposes.

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Forum consigliere

Give Randy a call at Jet Bullets. Bullet barn has new owners and I don’t know if things have changed but the ones I tried from them a few years ago were way too hard for any of my black powder guns. I solved that issue by casting myself now. Jet Bullets

Thank you for the "heads-up". Is there a chart or hardness scale that can be used to determine what constitutes too hard or too soft? This is my first foray into black powder firearms and lead bullets.

Basically you want 100% lead up to a max of 95% lead / 5% tin for BP cartridges. For the 44 Russian at BP velocities 100% will give you the best expansion. When buying alloy for casting, they are sometimes labeled by percentages and sometimes in ratios. 20:1 is the 95% lead/5% tin, which is they alloy I use for long range rifles in 38-55 and 45-70. (But most of my guns have nice modern barrels) In old guns, hand gun and rifle, the exact diameter varies , even inside the barrel, so 100% will take the rifling the best and be the most accurate. That will cause the gases to stay behind the bullet, which gives the fastest and most consistent velocity for any given load.

Many commercial Casters only use one alloy or some charge a little extra for pure lead. Stick with what the gun was designed for! Pure Lead!

More modern guns develop leading in the rifling at higher velocities with soft bullets, this is not an issue at Black Powder Velocities!

Ivan

I looked at the Bullet Barn site here in Canada (Alberta). It's list their hardness on the Brinell hardness level at 25. Is this bad or acceptable?

That is harder than the hubs of hades.............

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Thank you for the "heads-up". I've since sourced soft lead bullets up here in Canada and won't be buying from the Bullet Barn. On a pleasant note, Jet bullets are readily available in Canada AND they make a 240gr. hollow point! Given that I was looking for a "stopper" round for bush carry, that sounds like just the ticket. Another question, on the Firearms forum, another gentleman from Texas states that he's had good results with Alliant Unique. Any of you lot tried that?

I have no experience with Black Powder but It will get more velocity with less pressure than any smokeless powder. Unique is a great powder but it will produce pressure along with the exceptional performance and may overstress your weaker, hinged iron frame. Just be careful and go slow..................

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Absolutely incorrect! Full load pressures of BP in any caliber can be matched easily with smokeless powder. One thing that must be understood is that BP is designed to be loaded with a case full to the bottom of the bullet and that is the proper way to load BP cartridges. Only way to reduce BP loading is to use wads to fill the case with less powder.

To reduce the pressure of smokeless, you only need to reduce the amount of powder in the case, all the way down to a published minimum load which will be much lower pressures than full-boat BP cartridges. Read your reloading manual and you will find that you can find smokeless powder loads listed that are much lower than BP pressures.

The original BP loads for the 44 Russian were 12,000 CUP, up from 8,000 CUP for the earlier 44 American. The velocity of 44 Russian was 750 fps.

If you look for loads today, you can find the following data:

240g LRN 44 Russian

Trail Boss loading - - - from 8800 CUP to 10,000 CUP
- 604 fps to 661 fps
Clays - - - - - - - - - - -from 9400 CUP to 10,700 CUP
- 711 fps to 769 fps

Trail Boss was designed to produce low pressures and velocities for Cowboy Action shooting, so lower pressures and velocities are listed. Clays and Unique are relatively fast burning powder and one would expect the pressures and velocities to be similar. Unfortunately, Alliant does not list pressures for their 44 Russian loads.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Alliant website has data for 200 gr bullets. American Select (3.3 grns to start) would be my choice as the velocity is lower than any of the others they list. Red Dot and Unique are two others. AS is a relatively new powder but I've been a big fan as it loads my 9 mm, 45 ACP and 38 spl. exclusively.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Fantastic thread, thanks for the great debate and information. I did print it out per some excellent advice! I recently picked up a New Model 3 in 44 Russian. While it IS NOT my every day revolver, I do enjoy occasionally shooting all my collection, even a 140 year old revolver! Many components are not available, but my goal is to reload a traditional BP load with all lead bullet. Make it as traditional and safe as possible. Time to put myself on various "notification" lists. Thank you again.

Well! It's nice to see my old thread updated. Since I first posted on this site, I've had the opportunity to greatly advance my knowledge, thanks in most part to all you gentlemen who so generously shared your experiences. The 4" model I first had was sold and I picked up a near pristine 5" barreled pistol. Alas, it shot WAY high and left, to the point that it was near useless for my intended purpose. I took it upon myself to fabricate a new foresight that was both aesthetically pleasing and more accurate (see pic). For such an early production pistol (ser.#1840), the condition is nothing short of astounding. The grips are Asian hardwood replacements but well made for all that and not a bad fit. I shoot 4.6 gr. of HP38 with the 200 gr. soft cast lead flat nose plinking rounds and 4.8 gr. with the 240 gr. hollow points with no signs of stress on the old girl. You can see from the second pic how far to the left I had to make the blade.

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Phil Sharpe's 1937 reloading handbook for the .44 Russian recommends 3.0 grains of Bullseye for the 205-grain bullet, and 5.5 grains of Bullseye for the 246-grain bullet. Probably the same loadings would work OK for propellants very similar to Bullseye, such as Red Dot, AA #2, 700-X, or Clays.