Ratchet Peening to correct carry up

I have not lost anything, after studying the drawings in the Kuhausen manual I learned that early models don't have a wire hand spring. The hand is tensioned by a lever and a coil spring that runs vertically through the the body of the trigger.
 
When you can successfully carry up with a loaded "smart" cocking of the hammer you don't need to correct anything! Slowly cocking a revolver is not a correct test of anything. Put some correctly weighted rounds (or test rounds) in the cylinder and properly pull the hammer back in a "smart" manner. If it locks up you're good.
 
Load the cylinder with dummy rounds. (A real case with a real bullet in it. NO powder or primer.
Then do your SA test. Sometimes the cylinder lock-up is so close that the added "drag" on the recoil shield will add enough "delay" in the cylinder rotation to allow the cyl. stop to drop in properly to the cylinder notch.
Or just cock SA with a finger tip touching the cylinder.
Or as mentioned above pull the hammer back just a bit faster than slow.
Get back to us, please.
 
If you pull the DA straight through fast or thumb cock quickly momentum will spin a S&W cylinder into lock up if there is no drag on it. That if can not always be realized. Lead fouling or unburt powder in the flash gap or under the extractor can add drag as can not fully seating tight fitting cartridges, especially .22 LR cartridges.

More importantly, the cylinder is not spun into lock up by momentum if you hesitate to acquire a better aim just before DA let off. With some practice firing that way can be just as accurate as firing SA. The technique was used by most PPC competitors and many Bullseye competitors. For best results the hand has to push the cylinder all the way into lock up. Full carry up is of more value to me than excellent condition bluing.
 
K22fan has the correct way to check timing. I was told by a gunsmith yrs ago to put a little drag on the cylinder with a finger as you cock the hammer or pull the trigger slowly.

I shoot an 8 week double action only league each year and practice all year shooting DA when ever I shoot. Pulling the trigger back slowly till the cyl stop engages then realigning the sights and pulling a little more till it fires.

Been at gun shows and have checked the timing in a gun and would tell the table holder the timing was off. They would get a little mad and pull the hammer back fast 6 times like I was wrong. Now I just set it back down and thank them. Larry
 
I have already ordered a Power Customer hand, rebound spring set, and Barrette and hand window files.

So I am committed :)

In the mean time I tried it with dummy rounds in moon clips and riding the cylinder with a finger with the same result.

D/A carries up fine, Slow S/A Cocking 3 of 6 don't lock, Normal S/A Cockng carries up fine.
 
"....D/A carries up fine, Slow S/A Cocking 3 of 6 don't lock, Normal S/A Cockng carries up fine...."

Check the SA sear point/edge on the hammer very closely. From this description it sounds to me that perhaps the SA sear engagement points were altered a little.

In D/A, the hammer (and thus the hand) don't move as far in motion as they do in S/A.
But you have complete all 6 chambers locking up properly in D/A with it's very slight less overall motion.

In S/A where the hammer moves back further in motion than in D/A (and the hand then runs up higher along side the ratchet teeth),,you have 3 out of 6 chambers not locking up.. When It's Slow Danced Into S/A hammer cocked position.

I'm thinking that the S/A 'cocked' position is a tiny bit forward of where it should be. When slow cocking the action S/A and stopping as soon as the hammer and trigger engage (cock),,the hand has not traveled as far as it should to rotate the cylinder over (at least on 3 of the 6.)

Fast cocking in S/A (normal cocking motion) gives enough rotational momentum or spin to the cylinder to roll it into place and lock.

Just my thoughts when reading the different comments.
 
THE ISSUE IS CARRY UP:

Frankly, based on your assessment and comments, I believe Pat Sweeney's "Gunsmithing Pistols & Revolvers", 2nd Ed.(2004), pp.219-220 is the most sensible, a perfectly good solution, AND what I would do, what I have done many times, what S&W factory trained smiths have done in similar situations, and also what members on this forum have done successfully after reading this, which is:

Peening the ratchet tooth (or teeth) to correct timing/cyl ‘carry up’ is so simple, but you're the only one to decide if you can manage it.

Replacing and fitting a new hand may fix your problem and may not, but the hand is not likely needed or at fault. It’s the harder part.

The flat surfaces of the teeth facing you when looking at the rear face of the cyl are where to peen. The tooth at about 3 o'clock is the next to be engaged by the hand (when cyl is closed) to advance the chamber at the right of the one at 12 o’clock, into firing position. The cylinder turns counterclockwise so the hand will engage the 'bottom side' of that tooth. The flat surface facing you is where to peen, on the edge right above the bottom side of the tooth. No need to take the gun apart at all. I lay the gun on a padded surface on its right side, muzzle pointing to the left (I’m right handed) with cyl propped open with a rolled up shop cloth.

If you're worried about force to the yoke and frame, I'm afraid that you're envisioning TOO HARD of a tap. Just a very light peen with a small hammer and punch is all that's needed. The ratchet teeth are not hardened! This takes finesse, not force.

And by laying the gun on a padded surface without restraint as I described, it's allowed to move when the punch is tapped with the hammer mitigating any force to the yoke and frame.


You may not even see the metal deform and it can be enough to solve the problem. One light tap with a small light hammer and flat face punch then close the cylinder and try it. If the cylinder doesn't ‘carry up’ or even if it does C/U but still has too much 'looseness' when fully cocked, give the tooth another tap. You can do all six teeth, or just others where there's looseness with the chamber in firing position when the hammer is cocked.

Rough handling/constant double action rapid fire can accelerate the teeth wear but it did not happen overnight, and now you have another 10 years of shooting before it'll need anything more, depending of course on how much you shoot the gun. If you peen too much and the cylinder carries up too far that puts cocking the hammer in a bind or the bolt 'jumps' out of the cyl notch, not a problem, peen the surface that the hand contacts and push it back.

Also for side-to-side cylinder play, make sure the edges of the cylinder notches are not burred out or the cyl bolt can pop out of the notch. Gentle peening of the notch edges can fix that as well. “Tight lock up” is fine, but can be over emphasized. Recognize the cyl needs some play for the bullet to align the chamber to the forcing cone.

If you got have a new part and are comfortable fitting it, that's fine. But I would not spend money on new parts, because one can easily handle doing the following very minor repair.

The hand is made of harder steel than the teeth since it has six times the contacts of each tooth, and C/U is a typical result after many rounds of shooting. That's why I would not install a new hand, it already has the advantage.

Your hand spring (formerly located in the trigger) is probably in your cleaning medium. Look for a short coil spring with two legs sticking out of it. Or look in the vicinity of the route that the trigger traveled between where you pulled the hand and your cleaning container.
 
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Hondo44, thank you for your detailed reply, I need to think things over before I proceed on this project.

The parts and files will be arriving next week so that gives me time to think it over.

Thanks again !
 
I did it !

Successfully even !

Other than a slight clean up of the hand window in the frame I thinned the oversized power custom hand to fit, and had to file four of the ratchet teeth, two seem just right.

Thinning the hand on stones was the part that took the most time.

In addition I replaced the cylinder index pins, one of which was missing already and the remaining one fell out when I added a end shake washer, also I replace the rebound spring with a new 13 pound one.

Thanks for all the great advice !
 
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A few observations:

It is amazing that a currently made hand can be slightly reconfigured to fit a 100 revolver

It was not quick or easy

Maybe I got lucky

If you try to do it, take your time, buy the books mentioned earlier in the thread, take advice from experienced people

Take time to watch and understand how the parts work together

Buy the recommended tools
 
Hondo gave me the same advice on peening the teeth some years back. Being a long time metal worker made perfect sense to me and I followed it and have had complete success with it.

Those who do not believe you can successfully peen a ratchet tooth and get lasting results do not understand steel or extractors. The extractor steel is almost dead soft. The hand is a fully hardened piece of tool steel hard enough that a regular file will skate on, you need a fine hard stone to effect it. It will not wear, either the softer ratchet or frame window will. A file will cut an extractor. The cylinder does not headspace on extractors teeth, but small cycle of steel in center.

Properly struck by a flat face punch held against it the tooth top will shorten slightly, displacing metal to expand out down its entire length. Just .0002. will make a difference. I have files ratchets that bound at end of pull when installed. It takes more than 1 or 2 strokes of a fine file to remove enough metal to have an effect and it would take a lot of rub bys by a super smooth hard hand to have removed very much material from the edge off a tooth.

Here is a fact for the doubters A peened ratchet tooth would be a bit harder than one that was never struck because it would become slightly work hardened.

But, BEFORE you go changing out hands, peening extractors etc etc. FIRST check your end shake. A excess of end shake allows the cylinder to move forward and can allow the end of the hand to go past the edge of each tooth a little bit sooner if the tooth face was original filed or has worn slightly so it is not 100% perpendicular to the cylinder face.

The difference between perfect carry up and late is so small that as tight as the small match drilled pins mate with the extractor, loading cases in the chambers will move the ratchet that .0001 or so that it is it right.

Try this. Take a 1" piece of 3/8" round stock. Mic the length and dia at each end and center . Hold it vertical on an anvil or heavy piece of steel. Give it a solid rap with a hammer. No full out swing just a good solid rap. Now mic the same locations again. No surprise to me to find the length decreased and all of the diameters will have increased. If I heated it up so it did not work harden I could make the rod a disk. Yes it would move easier hot, But, I could do it cold to, just more likely to work harden and crack before it went far enough cold.
 
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