Thumb safety or NO thumb safety ??

Maxshield said:

Exactly, one handles a gun 365 times a year at a bare minimum, load/unload, in and out of holster and many other times. All Have potential for an accident or a brain fart.

Didn't always think that, was up the mountains in the woods one day and had my 9c in a Fobus paddle holster. The rivets on the holster were irritating my side. Removed the 9c from holster to adjust and tripped. Gun fell from hand as I tried to catch myself.

Now, I know the 9c is drop safe and should have let it drop, but the natural inclination is to try to catch anything that you drop, which is what I did, snagged the trigger and gun fired into ground


Been carrying daily since 1980, even at home, and always handle any weapon only in the basement surrounded by 20,000 miles of dirt. Still do that but with either Shield 9, 45 or 9c with safety. From 1988 until 2014, carry gun was a G19 or G26.

When gun is carried daily, safety is snapped off when holstered and on before removing. It's a no brainer now in my book, especially with the Shield safety, it's like it's not even there

Click to expand...

No offense but you could have avoided the situation altogether if you had a real holster and not that **** Fobus paddle. That's a range holster at best.

hdtwice said:

What you say makes sense to me. However, I have been doing lots of research on this and I keep coming across articles and videos from people who train others in handgun skills and I keep hearing how even those who have decades of experience while in a pistol class, many times forget to flip the safety off in drills. This is with out the stress of life and death so for me, I am really at a crossroads here as a new guy to pistols.

Click to expand...

My question is, why? Why does the M&P need a thumb safety? The striker is not cocked. The pistols are drop safe. What are you really gaining by having one? If it's just for your peace of mind OK, but there is no mechanical reason for it.

If you're new to guns the answer is education and training, not a switch to make up for poor gun handling or holster choice.

silversnake said:

My question is, why? Why does the M&P need a thumb safety? The striker is not cocked. The pistols are drop safe. What are you really gaining by having one? If it's just for your peace of mind OK, but there is no mechanical reason for it.

If you're new to guns the answer is education and training, not a switch to make up for poor gun handling or holster choice.

Click to expand...

Here is what I have come up with so far as to your question, (and mine) of why a safety?

1.Because I am learning how pistols work I tend to do lots of research, and that is an understatement, as to how they work specifically the striker system. Here is a quote from another thread here on the forum from Smakmauz....


"The strikers on all the M&P series are in fact about 98% cocked. The trigger pull only moves the striker back a tiny amount. If there was no striker safety block in the gun and the striker dropped, there would be sufficient energy to ignight most primers. The trigger pull deactivates the striker block in in its first 'stage and then realeases the striker.

This one reason why it's extremely important to practice good trigger control and interference awareness when holstering.

With glock, the striker is only 60-70% cocked so it probably wouldn't have enough energy to ignight if that striker was to bypass the safety but I'm not 100% sure on that. This is why glock has that longer trigger pull with that hefty snap at the end." It seems as the striker is cocked.

2. The Human equation.... I understand muscle memory very well and the importance of training. I am now and have been a professional martial arts instructor for over 3 decades of both empty hand and weapons some of which are bladed. Some people say that and teach one or two classes a week, I teach 33. I understand that people do make mistakes and considering the gravity of the possible consequences...it gets me thinking.
I am not so worried about me not keeping my finger off the trigger, but more so where something like a bunched up shirt, or a drawstring gets caught in the trigger guard while holstering. I have come across quite a few stories about that and it does worry me a bit.

So, like I said, I realize being a new guy to this there is much to learn and so far, as least for me, the jury is still out on how I will proceed with the question of using the thumb safety.

I do appreciate the input..thanks.

That is my point, 98% is still not the same as being cocked. That 2% may not sound like much, but the engineers knew what they were doing.

You're exactly right about reholstering, this is the easiest time to have an accident and so you do have to be careful. I would cut the drawstrings off any jacket you intend to use while carrying a pistol. Remember there is no reward for speed holstering. You might even find it easier to take the holster off, put the gun in, and then put the holster back on.

Get a good holster too. Don't get something like a Blackhawk Serpa, which requires your trigger finger to release the gun. Don't get a cheap nylon holster that could collapse in on itself when you're trying to reholster. Don't get a paddle holster (poor retention, poor concealment).

On a gun like the M&P I consider a manual safety to be a false sense of security. It's just a piece of metal that could break or accidentally get switched on or off. Practice safe gun handling every time and it's superfluous.

I don't like thumb safety on my pistols. However you could order it with thumb safety. If you ever want to eliminate the safety S&W will send you the safety delete plugs free.
Best of both worlds. If you think you may want a safety.

First of all, realize that this thread is a year old and you may not get responses from some of the previous participants.

hdtwice said:

...even those who have decades of experience while in a pistol class, many times forget to flip the safety off in drills.

Click to expand...

If you use the proper grip, this is impossible. Your shooting hand thumb should be on top of the thumb safety.

silversnake said:

The striker is not cocked.

Click to expand...

Wrong.

silversnake said:

That is my point, 98% is still not the same as being cocked. That 2% may not sound like much, but the engineers knew what they were doing.

Click to expand...

Wrong again. Well, the engineers do indeed know what they're doing, but the striker in an M&P is fully cocked.

I don't know where the 98% number came from, but it's wrong. If the striker moves at all from pressing the trigger, it's only because two flat surfaces that are touching will cam one surface as the other rotates. In the case of the M&P, the sear is only rotating about 5° which means the 1/64" of sear engagement will move the striker about .001" as the sear rotates. This does NOT cock the striker more or add any significant power to the striker.

If somehow the sear were to fall out of the way and the striker block was defeated, the gun would fire without the mythological extra move.

You are correct to say that the thumb safety is not really needed. All it does is block trigger movement. Some like it because it does reduce the possibility of ND while re-holstering.

Rastoff said:

First of all, realize that this thread is a year old and you may not get responses from some of the previous participants.

If you use the proper grip, this is impossible. Your shooting hand thumb should be on top of the thumb safety.

Wrong.Wrong again. Well, the engineers do indeed know what they're doing, but the striker in an M&P is fully cocked.

I don't know where the 98% number came from, but it's wrong. If the striker moves at all from pressing the trigger, it's only because two flat surfaces that are touching will cam one surface as the other rotates. In the case of the M&P, the sear is only rotating about 5° which means the 1/64" of sear engagement will move the striker about .001" as the sear rotates. This does NOT cock the striker more or add any significant power to the striker.

If somehow the sear were to fall out of the way and the striker block was defeated, the gun would fire without the mythological extra move.

You are correct to say that the thumb safety is not really needed. All it does is block trigger movement. Some like it because it does reduce the possibility of ND while re-holstering.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the more technical explanation!

We always see a lot of bickering and contradiction in threads on this topic.

One perspective is that since people are not perfect and can make mistakes, a manual safety is desirable. They will say the odds of actually needing your gun for self-defense are very low, but you carry and handle your weapon very frequently, so a safety just makes good sense. If we are going to go by the odds, then carrying a gun could be considered unnecessary.

Another perspective is that a manual safety is simply not needed and adherence to safety guidelines and proper training mitigates any need for it. Individuals with this viewpoint will assert to keep things as simple as they can be and that it's possible to fail to get it disengaged, especially during the stress and urgent pace of a life and death struggle and therefore shun manual safeties.

If failing to get it disengaged is possible no matter the training, then making a mistake and having an unintentional discharge is also possible no matter how careful someone happens to be. There are merits to both perspectives, so it's a matter of finding the right balance since there is no factually correct or incorrect answer for every individual.

I'm not perfect and realize I can and do make mistakes and the right balance for me is no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull. This keeps things as simple as possible while adding an adequate measure of safety. I do not feel my DAO revolvers need a manual safety nor do I feel my NY trigger equipped Glocks need them. If I bought a Shield, I would get the one with no manual safety and the MA trigger. A lot of folks will say marksmanship will suffer with a heavier trigger pull, but not all that much from my experience and surely not enough to matter in the close and fast scenarios of civilian self-defense. People always talk about proper training, but how many actually engage in realistic self-defense training in context? Very few in my opinion.

I managed to survive a lot of years with no manual safety on my revolvers.
Why have one on a semi-auto?

I don't see the value added.
RC

Emalone5 said:

When purchasing a 9mm shield do you purchase thumb safety or NO thumb safety?? Any comments or suggestions please.

Click to expand...

stavey said:

I don't like thumb safety on my pistols. However you could order it with thumb safety. If you ever want to eliminate the safety S&W will send you the safety delete plugs free.
Best of both worlds. If you think you may want a safety.

Click to expand...

Not for the Shield. Full size, yes.

No thumb safety on any of my guns, except 1911s

Mistakes can be made with or without the safety. A big concern is the safety can give false security and is an extra variable the operator must account for in all handling situations.
I treat every firearm as loaded and I use quality holsters.
A single action pistol should have a thumb safety. Striker fired pistols do not need them, except for the Sig p320 ;(
Many folks have had accidental discharges on pistols with safeties. If you want a safety, thats your choice, God Bless America. If you ever read about the testing police departments did with different pistols, you'll find out that a high percentage of experience firearms instructors failed to remember if the safety was on or off and it was common to have issues where the time to shoot arose and they didn't turn off the safety.
Glock doesn't put safeties on their pistols and more police carry their pistols than any other. I worked as LEO in the 90s and we were issued the Beretta 92G. Wilson Combat sells G conversion kits. They don't sell kits to add the safety...
Please don't ever feel your M&P is safer because it has a safety, you're kidding yourself.

So the main argument with a thumb safety like on say a Shield 9 is that somehow it will cost you your life because in that moment of need you will forget to flick it off . Not to sound sarcastic but how many people have actually had to fast draw and shoot . From what I have seen or heard from real events is people run for shelter . Only to return fire some what later if at all . Sometimes I get the feeling that people think they are going to be in a quick draw contest like the wild west . I hear this same reasoning over and over again . I have a safety on when loaded it's how I feel comfortable . Maybe there are quick draw gun fights going on some where I have not heard about .

You're right, its crazy how many people involved in defensive shootings said afterward how relaxed the whole shootout was...
Every training I've received has stressed how laid back shootouts can be. Most teach their that there is no need to carry a round chambered, or even ammo on your person. You can run, I mean stroll calmly and get the ammo from your trunk later on if needed.

I'm a lefty, so my shield is the nts version. Two of my other M&Ps had the ambi safety which I removed and added the frame plugs. I don't want any device preventing my trigger from being pulled to the rear when I intend it to do so. YMMV.

I'm with OKFC05 ...

... I don't need a safety on my CCW and just like the quote from Blackhawk Down, my safety is my index finger. If my finger is on the trigger something is going to get shot. If my finger isn't on the trigger then nothing will be shot. It's that simple. That being said my first S&W M&P Bodyguard 380 came with both a laser and a thumb safety. It came that way so be it. When I carry the gun in an IWB the safety is off. If I am going to show it to someone I pop out the mag and rack the slide to remove the chambered round. Again, it's that simple. I do have an old Ruger P-85. Again, it came with a thumb safety, so be it. But I follow the same rules, if I'm going to show it to someone, I pop out the mag and rack the slide to remove the round that's chambered.
Then again, I have been shooting since I was 10 years old. I shot my first 1911 when I was 10. My Grandfather popped out the mag and racked the slide to pop out the round and handed me the gun with the slide open. He showed me how to operate the gun then handed me the mag back, I shoved the mag in place, racked the slide and pointed it at the target and "bang". My first shot with a semi-auto was a hit. I get no credit for that, I give all the credit to my Grandfather for being an excellent teacher. He had been putting meat on their table since he was the same age as I was at the time, 10 years old. Oh, by the way, I'll save you the math, I'm 58 years old, so I've been shooting for 48 years, 2 years shy of a half century of shooting.

Safe shooting to you all~
Kia

OKFC05 said:

If you have an external manual safety on a pistol and don't routinely train with it, one day Murphy will raise his ugly head, and you will be standing there with a safety that somehow got pushed ON, wondering why your gun won't shoot.

When it all goes south, we do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training....at best.

Because they know the above is true, no serious competitor would have a gratuitous safety that they sometimes use or not on a handgun they use for any serious purpose.

Click to expand...

KELSW said:

From what I have seen or heard from real events is people run for shelter . Only to return fire some what later if at all .

Click to expand...

There are many security videos out there that show defenders presenting and firing right away because the bad guy is right in front of them. They didn't have time to run for shelter.

The point is, you don't know what the situation will be when you'll need your gun. The smartest idea is to practice a lot and be ready for whatever you can be ready for.

If you have a thumb safety, and that's your choice, it's wise to practice switching it off.

I started shooting in 1960. I love Semi's over revolvers. I have always used a safety on my pistols. I probably never needed to use them. I never accidentally pulled the trigger but I used them. It has something to do with MURPHY the lawgiver.

I NEVER LOOK AT MY GUN till I have it in firing position. It comes from my holster and as it is being leveled my thumb does its thing and flips the safety off. It is part of acquiring my target. I am not fast but I know what my target is all the time and where it is all the time. Even with a safety I am not slowed down, because it is part of my draw.

So my question is: What is the problem with using a safety?
My primary CCW is a model 59, old and heavy. I have 2 safeties, It won't fire if the mag is out and the other is manual at thumb. The manual not only disables the trigger but also decocks the weapon and covers the firing pin so the hammer won't strike it. I carry with one round in the chamber and I follow safety procedures with my weapon at all times but I feel more comfortable that I can enable it to fire before I acquire my target without any waste of time.

rc229 said:

I managed to survive a lot of years with no manual safety on my revolvers.
Why have one on a semi-auto?

I don't see the value added.
RC

Click to expand...

Apples and oranges (i.e. a falacious argument). A (uncocked) double action revolver is vastly more difficult to fire accidentally, than a modern striker-fired pistol is.
The arguments against having a safety (from what I've read, for years now), seem to rest on this belief that there's a likelyhood of ever needing to draw and fire a pistol in .04 seconds, or else certain death will ensue.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the average civilian toter will ever need to fire his weapon, much less ever be surprised that quickly with a critical, life/death assault (BTW, this is where a little situational awareness comes in handy).
On the other hand, we are VASTLY more likely to be handling the pistol in numerous ways, every day.....for decades, without ever,EVER needing to fire it.
Therefore, the fact of the matter is that an accidental dischage is much more realistic threat, than this hypothetical need to start blasting in less time than it takes to flick off a safety.
Also, when toting my Shield, I typically flick the safety off once in my pocket holster, so I'm still ready to fend of any ninja-alien-zombies that instantaneously materialize within arms reach of me.
Otherwise, I leave the safety on.

Mark IV said:

Apples and oranges (i.e. a falacious argument). A (uncocked) double action revolver is vastly more difficult to fire accidentally, than a modern striker-fired pistol is.
The arguments against having a safety (from what I've read, for years now), seem to rest on this belief that there's a likelyhood of ever needing to draw and fire a pistol in .04 seconds, or else certain death will ensue.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the average civilian toter will ever need to fire his weapon, much less ever be surprised that quickly with a critical, life/death assault (BTW, this is where a little situational awareness comes in handy).
On the other hand, we are VASTLY more likely to be handling the pistol in numerous ways, every day.....for decades, without ever,EVER needing to fire it.
Therefore, the fact of the matter is that an accidental dischage is much more realistic threat, than this hypothetical need to start blasting in less time than it takes to flick off a safety.
Also, when toting my Shield, I typically flick the safety off once in my pocket holster, so I'm still ready to fend of any ninja-alien-zombies that instantaneously materialize within arms reach of me.
Otherwise, I leave the safety on.

Click to expand...

I guess you've never tried a Glock with an NY+ trigger. The trigger pull weight is equivalent to that of a DAO revolver and the trigger travel is 1/2" compared to 3/4" for the revolver. Slightly shorter, but not a vast difference as far I'm concerned in terms of safety.

And not all striker-fired pistols are the same. Some feature a nearly fully pre-cocked striker, others like the Glock are only about half-cocked. There are even a few models that are true DAO with multi-strike capability where there is no pre-tensioning of the striker.

I'm a little confused how a manual safety really benefits you since you carry it in the off position in a pocket holster.

And you make the assertion that reactive close-quarter scenarios involving the need for armed response are rare. What stats or knowledge are you basing that on? I would agree that needing to fire a weapon in self-defense is relatively uncommon(as long as you have an ample amount of common sense and don't put yourself at undue risk), but should you need to fire your weapon, there is a very good chance that it will be quick and close.