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OH NOOOO! Not 3in1 oil. The guns ruined. The only thing worse would have been WD40.
But then that didn’t come along for 20+ years.
Remington 12 .22 pump (UPDATE, need a REM. 121)
- Thread starter ColbyBruce
- Start date
OH NOOOO! Not 3in1 oil. The guns ruined. The only thing worse would have been WD40.
But then that didn’t come along for 20+ years.
I bought this early (1937) Remington 121 a couple years ago to go with my Winchester gallery guns (1890, 1906 and Model 62).
IIRC I paid around $450.
The Remington and Winchester gallery rifles look very similar, with the main difference being the more modern hammerless design Remington introduced in 1909.
After Winchester was bought by Olin in 1932 they updated the 1890/1906 design to the hammer less fast back design in their Model 61 to compete with the Model 12.
The designs and their designers however could not be more different. John Browning for example, was a master at making simple looking parts do very complex things and the 1890, 1906, 61 and 62 all reflect that.
John Pedersen on the other hand was an equal firearms genius who designed very complex but elegant mechanisms and the Model 12 and 121 reflect that.
——
Remington introduced the .22LR high velocity load (40 grain bullet at 1280 fps compared to the standard velocity load at 1095 fps) in 1930. The .22 LR high velocity load pretty well polished off most of the lingering appeal for the .22 WRF and dimensionally identical .22 Remington Special.
(However by then the .22WRF and .22 RS had evolved from launching a 45 gr bullet at 1050 fps. to launching a 45 gr bullet at 1440 fps. It still wasn’t enough performance difference to offset the cost difference and both cartridges quickly dies out. Winchester resurrected the concept with the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire in 1959, operating at 24,000 psi and launching a 40 gr bullet at 1875 fps.)
Remington did not however introduce the Model 121 until 1936. The popular wisdom is that Remington improved the design with the Model 121 to make it stronger in order to allow the design to handle the higher pressure .22 LR high velocity load.
I have never quite believed that based on never seeing a Model 12 with a cracked bolt or other .22 LR HV related damage. Plus the “improvement” in the Model 121 is a slightly thicker and heavier receiver.
Plus like the Winchester 1890, the Model 12 was also chambered in .22 Remington Special / .22 WRF, cartridges that produced 19,000 psi pressures at that time. While that is well ahead the usual 8000-13000 psi for standard velocity loads, it’s not far behind the modern .22 LR high velocity SAAMI maximum pressure of 24,000 psi. That standard for .22 LR was also set in 1975. While the Model 12 was by then been out of production for a whopping 39 years, Remington made 832,000 of them and they were still in very common use. SAAMI wasn’t likely to set a standard in excess of what a still in common use .22 LR rifle would manage.
Would I shoot modern CCI stingers in a Model 12? Probably not, but to be honest that’s an overly conservative bias against the stinger on my part. The peak pressure is within limits, it’s just longer. Would I shoot regular 40 gr 1280 fps .22 LR HV? Sure.
But then I rarely shoot anything other than standard velocity ammo anyway.
In any case I suspect the introduction by Winchester of the modernized 1890/1906 design in the form of the hammer equipped Model 62 and the hammerless Model 61 in 1932 prompted the redesign of the Model 12 more than anything else.
Even though the basic 1890 design was already bank vault strong by any .22 rimfire standard Winchester could claim the Model 61 and 62 were designed for the new .22 LR high velocity load. Remington could not say that about the Model 12 so a minor update and model number change made sense.
IIRC I paid around $450.
The Remington and Winchester gallery rifles look very similar, with the main difference being the more modern hammerless design Remington introduced in 1909.
After Winchester was bought by Olin in 1932 they updated the 1890/1906 design to the hammer less fast back design in their Model 61 to compete with the Model 12.
The designs and their designers however could not be more different. John Browning for example, was a master at making simple looking parts do very complex things and the 1890, 1906, 61 and 62 all reflect that.
John Pedersen on the other hand was an equal firearms genius who designed very complex but elegant mechanisms and the Model 12 and 121 reflect that.
——
Remington introduced the .22LR high velocity load (40 grain bullet at 1280 fps compared to the standard velocity load at 1095 fps) in 1930. The .22 LR high velocity load pretty well polished off most of the lingering appeal for the .22 WRF and dimensionally identical .22 Remington Special.
(However by then the .22WRF and .22 RS had evolved from launching a 45 gr bullet at 1050 fps. to launching a 45 gr bullet at 1440 fps. It still wasn’t enough performance difference to offset the cost difference and both cartridges quickly dies out. Winchester resurrected the concept with the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire in 1959, operating at 24,000 psi and launching a 40 gr bullet at 1875 fps.)
Remington did not however introduce the Model 121 until 1936. The popular wisdom is that Remington improved the design with the Model 121 to make it stronger in order to allow the design to handle the higher pressure .22 LR high velocity load.
I have never quite believed that based on never seeing a Model 12 with a cracked bolt or other .22 LR HV related damage. Plus the “improvement” in the Model 121 is a slightly thicker and heavier receiver.
Plus like the Winchester 1890, the Model 12 was also chambered in .22 Remington Special / .22 WRF, cartridges that produced 19,000 psi pressures at that time. While that is well ahead the usual 8000-13000 psi for standard velocity loads, it’s not far behind the modern .22 LR high velocity SAAMI maximum pressure of 24,000 psi. That standard for .22 LR was also set in 1975. While the Model 12 was by then been out of production for a whopping 39 years, Remington made 832,000 of them and they were still in very common use. SAAMI wasn’t likely to set a standard in excess of what a still in common use .22 LR rifle would manage.
Would I shoot modern CCI stingers in a Model 12? Probably not, but to be honest that’s an overly conservative bias against the stinger on my part. The peak pressure is within limits, it’s just longer. Would I shoot regular 40 gr 1280 fps .22 LR HV? Sure.
But then I rarely shoot anything other than standard velocity ammo anyway.
In any case I suspect the introduction by Winchester of the modernized 1890/1906 design in the form of the hammer equipped Model 62 and the hammerless Model 61 in 1932 prompted the redesign of the Model 12 more than anything else.
Even though the basic 1890 design was already bank vault strong by any .22 rimfire standard Winchester could claim the Model 61 and 62 were designed for the new .22 LR high velocity load. Remington could not say that about the Model 12 so a minor update and model number change made sense.
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The Model 12 bolt will shear it's locking lug off on occassion. When presented, the owner will usually admit to using HS ammo and/or have no idea that HS ammo would have any bad effects on the gun.
I've seen probably a dozen M12's with the bolt locking lug sheared off. That's in 50+ yrs of gunsmithing.
Here's a pic off the net of the 2 Model 12 bolt styles (Early & Late), plus a
Model 121 bolt.
The sheared lug is on the early style Model 12.
The late style Model 12 (after # 650,000 changed over to the round style firing pin from the flat stamped steel pin. That strengthened the breech face somewhat. It did make firing HS ammo in these later style bolt fitted guns a little safer. It doesn't strengthen the locking lug at all.
It does support the cartridge base better than the orig style flat firing pin.
Savage/Stevens and others like MArlin did much the same thing is upgrading their pump .22's of the StdVel era when the HS ammo came onto the market.
They did quick conversions to the bolt to better support the cartridge case itself for the use of HS ammo. Most of these are simply called High Speed Bolt changes or conversions done by the factorys.
None strengthen the locking systems of any of the rifles involved. They attempt to better support the cartridge case itself at the base and sometimes the rim at the sides from blow-out on HS ammo.
They were all quick fixes as they soon found out.
All of the mfg'rs involved redesigned their rifles. Strengthened locking to safely accept HS ammo along with the already needed cartridge case support at the chamber areas.
The Savage Model 29 was gone. The Savage 29A took it's place.
A near look a like on the outside,,nearly completely different on the inside.
The Remington 121 frame/recv'r is ever so slightly larger in width and heighth than the orig Model 12. It's measureable and with the two side by side, most can easily see the difference. Some say they can't,,oh well.
You can see the beefed up locking lug on the 121 bolt.
Not only extending deeper back down the body of the top of the bolt than the Model 12, but it's full width across the top face of the bolt. Unlike the Model 12 where it is only a partial width face accross the top of the bolt body.
The Model 12 got a face lift at the same time that the Model 8 and the Model 14, the Mod24 (re-done to accept HS ammo as well) and some others in the Remington line did.
Fuller size stocks and forends are the most noticeable cosmetic change. Mechanical changes to all of them.
The whole lot of them were given and extra '1' to their old Model #'s.
