357 SIG Gold Dot (FAIL)

We tested a few .357 SIG rounds this weekend and we had a case failure during the testing.

YouTube - 357 SIG - Speer Gold Dot (FAIL) - 125 Gr. JHP Ammo Test

oops Speer....

Andre'

makes a great argument for carrying two CCWs

Wonder if it was the gun or the ammo, I have never seen such a thing before.

Troy

Troystat said:

Wonder if it was the gun or the ammo, I have never seen such a thing before.

Troy

Click to expand...

More than likely a bit of both. The 357 SIG as is its parent round the 40 S&W are high pressure rounds, if the barrel they are being fired in does not fully support the case you can have a case failure. The 40 S&W is known for this sort of thing.

Ammo

After sending an email to the manufacturer, I got an email back today asking me to ship the ammo back to Speer for testing. I will see what they have to say about it.



Andre'

Best I can tell, it looks like a bad piece of brass. Primers look the same in the ones that did not blow as in the one that did, and the blown one did not rupture at the head or pierce the primer. Barrel "support" or lack thereof was therefore irrelevant. That tells a story of bad brass, not excessive pressure.

I have shipped the remainder of the ammo, along with the broken case and the other fired cases, and the recovered slugs back to Speer for analysis. I am wondering what happed myself. As far as I can tell it was bad brass but I am not an expert by any means. I will let you guys know what they say.

Andre'

makes a great argument for carrying two CCWs

Click to expand...

A better argument never to fire a warning shot and to make sure your first shot counts as you may not get a second.

Everyone worries about the reliability of the gun but ammo can be the weak link too. Even though factory ammo is extremely reliable there's nothing that's 100%. It may be 99.9999% but you can still loose this lottery and get the 1 that isn't right.

Troystat said:

Wonder if it was the gun or the ammo, I have never seen such a thing before.

Troy

Click to expand...

I've seen AMERC brass fail like this often. Defective brass, it sounds like. Only surprise is that Speer let it slip by.

Was that really a golddot?

I have purchased many golddot rounds, and I have never seen one with a brass colored primer. Also, golddots typically will not fragment like that.

These were factory rounds. I bought them from Ammunitontogo.com specifically for this test. They were fresh from the box and had not been chambered prior (no setback). We also tested a number of brands of ammo and also put a full box (50) of FMJ though the barrel. There were no other such failures with any other ammo that day. I was very suprised at this myself since Gold Dots always did well in our other tests.

Andre'

Makes a great argument for using 9mm +P+ when you want extra horsepower. I never saw any advantage to the round. It looked like a solution in search of a problem.

Interesting...Maybe bad brass, who knows. I don't think we need to condemn the caliber or manufacturer though, after one incident. Stuff happens when millions of rounds are made. I've seen cases come from other manufacturers, in other calibers, with backward primers. One case (a 357 Sig) had the primer, but after going bang and not extracting, we examined it. The primer was missing, and we found no flash hole in the primer pocket. I shoot mostly my own reloads, but shoot factory ammo at our Department range, for work. These couple of incidents, while not numerous, showed me things can happen with factory ammo. That's why it's strongly advised to check all service ammo, before putting it in service. Nothing human made will ever be 100%, but the manufacturers do come close. It will be interesting to see what Speer says happened, if they do.

As a side note; All the Speer 357 Sig GD I've used has the brass colored primers. Also there looks like some primer extrusion present on all of the cases shown. (Hard to tell from the brief exposure on the video, and not being able to handle them.) I looked at some of my spent Speer GD cases and found some extrusion in those fired in a Glock, and none in those fired in my Kimber or Springfield XD. Don't have a Beretta, so it may be normal in this gun. Like I said, who knows what happened, maybe we'll find out.

My computer keeps freezing up and I can't see the whole video. I did see the split brass and the after market barrel, are you sure it's not a head space problem?

Robert B said:

I have purchased many golddot rounds, and I have never seen one with a brass colored primer. Also, golddots typically will not fragment like that.

Click to expand...

Gold Dots at that velocity will often fragment in water. Seen it; done it. I have factory Speer .357 Sig ammo with brass-colored primers. Speer suffered during the primer shortage just like the rest of us did. The degree of primer extrusion shown in the photos is not unusual in .357 Sig, and is less than in most non-Speer/CCI brands. The reason that TXDPS went to Speer-only ammo was a primer extrusion issue with other brands.

I am anxiously waiting to hear what Speer has to say about all this. Pretty scary to think what if that had happened during a fire fight

Ok guys,

I think we have finally found out what happened here. After changing the factory recoil spring to a heavier 20# one, we have had no further issues. Below are the emails that were sent back and forth to Speer on the issue in order. Also, I have made a video response to this one and posted it here:

YouTube - Gold Dot Case Failure Resolution


In the response, we shot a full box through with the heavier spring and had no problems at all.


Andre’







From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:27 AM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: Gold Dot Case Failure

Hello,

I have a channel on youtube where I test various ammo. While I realize
that these tests are not exactly scientific in nature; they have developed a significant following. On a recent test of your Gold Dot ammo, I had a case break in half. I have never seen anything like this. Here is a link to the video:

YouTube - 357 SIG - Speer Gold Dot (FAIL) - 125 Gr. JHP Ammo Test

We shot a number of other brands through that barrel both before this
Failure and after and everything else was flawless. I can say that I have shot tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of rounds over my lifetime and I have never seen this happen. I am willing to send the remainder of the box and the broken case to you for analysis provided I am allowed to tell them your findings.


Andre' Leger
YouTube - andreleger2001's Channel


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:49 AM
To: Andre' Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre': we would like to test the product to establish if meets industry standards for 357 SIG.

SHIP IN THE FOLLOWING MANNER, SEND TO:

CCI
ATTN: COY GETMAN
**** **********
LEWISTON, ID 83501

INSIDE THE PACKAGE PLACE YOUR CONTACT INFORMATION, NAME, ADDRESS (MUST
BE STREET SO UPS CAN DELIVER, NOT A P.O. BOX) PHONE NUMBER. INCLUDE A SHORT NOTE ON WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS THAT YOU EXPERIENCED WITH THE TYPE FIREARM.

MARK THE EXTERIOR OF THE PACKAGE WITH "CARTRIDGES, SMALL ARMS" AND
"ORM-D". THEN SHIP VIA UPS GROUND. DO NOT SEND LIVE AMMUNITION THROUGH THE US MAIL.

QUESTIONS, CONTACT ME @ 866-***-****.

We will test and replace any product you send for testing and cover the cost incurred in shipping with additional ammunition.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator
(866) ***-****

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:04 AM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

ok, ill ship it back today...

Andre' Leger
YouTube - andreleger2001's Channel


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:16 PM
To: Andre' Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre':

Testing is complete on the product returned, Lot # C21R33, it met
Industry Standard for pressure and was actually a bit above the catalog
velocity spec at 1390 fps. Review of the fired cartridge cases that you
sent showed what appears to be cases that have been exposed to a firearm with a headspace problem.

The appearance of a headspace problem in a semi-auto firearm can also be attributed to the timing being out of cycle. That could be as a result of the EKF Fire Dragon after-market barrel being installed on the Taurus PT-100 slide and frame. The 357 Sig has an Industry approved Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) which exceeds that of the 40 S&W by almost 20% which may add to the problem.

Now to the case that pulled apart when firing. The case appears as if it was stressed during extraction and it shows an extractor mark in the rim cut that has removed the nickel plating from the case. I suspect that goes back to the comment above about being out of cycle as the primers also show them to be domed and cratered (raised metal) around the primer strike. The fired cases from your gun show the same indications on the case rim and the raised primer material.

Based on our testing, the fired cases and the failed case are all indications that the timing is out of cycle and/or headspace is an issue in the modified firearm. We will replace the product you sent for testing and cover your shipping cost with additional product, that said, I would give serious consideration to not using it in the modified Taurus PT-100.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Leger
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:50 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

Coy,

The only 'modifications' made to the original PT100 was a simple barrel
swap. The factory locking block was used. I do not mind sending the barrel to EFK for testing. Since this failure incident we have fired many hundreds of rounds through the same barrel and gun combination with ammo from many different manufacturers (all factory) and we have had no problems at all. No FTF, no FTE, no stovepipes, no cracked cases, no signs of overpressure... nothing.

I can concede that it could be a headspace issue, but only testing the barrel would tell. Let me know if this response is what you want me to post as official and if you would like me to contact EFK about this issue. I have also forwarded this to a local gunsmith for his review.

Andre' Leger
YouTube - andreleger2001's Channel


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy, On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:17 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre':

As a matter of clarification:

The extraction timing can be ammunition specific depending on the burn speed of the propellant selected by the manufacturer and in this instance that timing issue is extracting the cartridge before the pressure has dropped sufficiently to ensure case integrity.

I would be remiss if I did not ensure you understood that the 357 Sig headspaces on the case mouth and not the shoulder of the case. I feel certain you know that, some that read the post may not.

Let me add also that the Lot size was about 100,000 rounds and it has been more than 6 months since the time of manufacture, yours is the only complaint on the Lot. We are under the assumption much of that ammunition has been fired in that length of time and in a number of different types of guns. Your replacement product was shipped last week.

Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Leger
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:07 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

Coy,

Ok, I have had a gunsmith check it out and he found nothing wrong with the gun. However when I cleaned the barrel recently, I did notice that part of the rifling right where it starts did look unusual. I am going to upload a vid for you to see what I mean if I can get it to go up. It may have caused an overpressure situation. I wish I would have recorded the stuck casing but we just pulled it out and kept going. Your theory is reasonable especially since the slight flaw of the barrel was observed during cleaning. It seems as though it may have been the cause. Barrel video link below (it is currently a private link until I hear back from you on this).

YouTube - EFK Firedragon Barrel

The stats about the lot being 100000 rounds leads me to think that the
barrel is indeed at fault. Looks like I will be sending the barrel back to EFK for their response.

Let me know if your ok with me posting most of these emails and what you think on the barrel video.

Andre' Leger


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:39 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Andre': I had the chance to lunch with an old friend and your issue became a topic of conversation. He'd seen the problem when a 45 Auto that had been converted to a 10mm. The increase in pressure and the increase in slide speed pulled cases apart as well as cratered the primers, the same issues you discovered.

The remedy was to increase the spring weight and that solved the problem. As the pressure increases (35,000 MAP to 40,000 MAP) and the bullet velocity jumps (~1100 fps to ~1400 fps) the timing causes the problem (as discussed earlier). Try changing the spring to one that would accommodate the 357 Sig vice the 40 S&W before sending the barrel back.

The rifling could be hitting the bullet and setting-back the round (out-of-battery), look for witness marks on the bullet, it could be the combination.

Coy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre' Leger
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:47 PM
To: Experts, SpeerAmmo
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure

hmmm.... I will get a spring and try it out. Thank you for your help on this issue. I will be posting the resolution on this soon.

Andre' Leger
YouTube - andreleger2001's Channel


-----Original Message-----
From: Getman, Coy On Behalf Of Experts, SpeerAmmo
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 PM
To: Andre Leger
Subject: RE: Gold Dot Case Failure


Let me know how it worked.
Coy

Just goes to show that a "simple and straightforward" project is hardly ever simple or straightforward.

I'm glad to hear it wasn't the ammo itself that was the problem. I like Speer GD ammo and would hate to think it was flawed.

I'm glad the problem seems to be solved. I'm also pleased to see how Speer tried to be straight with you on the problem and was willing to work with you on it.