+P Wadcutter

JayBird686 · May 28, 2011

Does any manufacturer make a +P version of wadcutters? I would think it would be a good idea, good cutting accompanied with a bit more punch than your normal target load.

Sure it would be easy to fab some up reloading, but you couldn't carry as personal defense stuff; unless you like paying for lawyers.

murphydog · May 28, 2011

I have not heard of this loading from a factory, but I would guess someone out there has handloaded them. They would have to be jacketed or hard cast to prevent leading.

There have been several threads about using handloads for defense...I think the consensus is it would be unlikely to cause any legal problems.

Frailer · May 28, 2011

Buffalo Bore sells a "standard pressure" 150 grain wadcutter load that is the closest thing you're likely to get to such a thing.

FWIW, I'm in the camp that believes there's nothing at all wrong with wadcutters for defensive use. I am of the opinion that, unlike rifle cartridges, handgun rounds--with their near-negligible (relatively speaking) energy--work by punching holes in their target. Wadcutters are darned good hole-punchers.

Pisgah · May 28, 2011

The main reason you won't see defensive or hunting loads for wadcutters is that the wadcutter form of bullet does not track straight when it strikes a fleshy target. Great for punching neat holes in paper; not so great for penetration. That, plus long-range accuracy, is the reason why the semiwadcutter exists, and is a better choice for self defense or hunting.

pete950 · May 28, 2011

Well im not going to get into a match with anyone,im in the wadcutter camp for defense, and the Buffalo Standared load is 850fps out of a snub.
Or just load 4.8 Unique or better with a double end hard cast wadcutter and you have a good load. I'm sure others from the camp will chime in or just search other threads hear on defensive wadcutters.

Pete

CALREB · May 28, 2011

If you are going to try this ,like Murphy said if you push regular lead too fastit will lead up quickly.Also dont use a hollow base wadcutter,if you push these much past 700fps or even that, the hollow cup blows out and the bullet accuracy is shot, 7-8 " sometimes at 25 yards and keyhole badly.Rb

pete950 · May 28, 2011

Use the Rainer plated they are very accurate pushed at 850 or so.
If you want to use lead try Our very own on the forum Tennesee valley
bullets.

Pete

stiab · May 28, 2011

The original Hydra-Shoks (pre-Federal) were higher pressure wadcutters, and also hollow points at the same time...

OKFC05 · May 28, 2011

I would think it would be a good idea, good cutting

A wadcutter as no advantage over a semi-wadcutter with respect the tissue damage.
As several others have said, it's all about bullet construction, and the typical wadcutter is not constructed with defense shooting in mind; the manufacturers of premium bullets generally choose an expanding form.
Some very recoil-sensitive shooters use wadcutters, which certainly is an option.
We went several hundred years using a plain round ball.

m1gunner · May 28, 2011

There are folks that believe the larger the meplate in a slow moving projectile (handgun rounds are slow moving projectiles) the more energy transferred to the target.

I subscribe to this way of thinking. A full wadcutter has the largest meplate possible for the caliber.

Erich · May 29, 2011

I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.

ArchAngelCD · May 29, 2011

Erich said:
I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.

That's a good load and I see no reason not to use them.
To avoid the loading problems I suggest hitting the target the first time around!!

photoman · Jun 6, 2011

I'm always interested in how divisive the wadcutter issue can be. It's a perfectly viable alternative for many who can't tolerate recoil (for medical or other reasons).

As far as a +P wadcutter, I'm not aware of any factory loads like that. The previosly mentioned Buffalo Bore load will surely satisfy your thirst for "hot" wadcutter loads. They kick like a mule in J frame Airweights!

6thtexas · Jun 7, 2011

I picked up on the hardcast WCs from reading Erich's posts in the past. I cast my own (Lyman # 358495) hard and use 5.0 gr. Unique. They stink when it comes to quick reloads, so I fill the gun with that load and have SWCs (358429) with the same powder charge in my loaders.

CTG_COLLECTOR · Jun 7, 2011

I have never seen a factory 148WC loaded to +P pressures and so marked on the case or box, by any company. The reason for this is because the WC bullet is designed to be used as a target load only.

The 38Spl WC bullet is a poor defense choice, right along with the RN, FMJ and SWC designs.

ArchAngelCD · Jun 7, 2011

CTG_COLLECTOR said:
The 38Spl WC bullet is a poor defense choice, right along with the RN, FMJ and SWC designs.

I have to disagree. The bullet is already full caliber in diameter and the flat edges of the wadcutter will cut tissue as well or better as it does paper. I agree a RN bullet is a poor choice for SD but the WC and SWC are not all that bad. The SWC will also cut tissue quite well. The shoulder of the SWC is very effective on tissue.

pete950 · Jun 7, 2011

I guess the Late Jim Cirillo didn't know what he was talking about.
The guy that was on the NYC Stake out Unit that was the unit that was involved in 48 shoot outs which he was involved in 17 of them,
He used a handloaded warmer wadcutter load. He then went on to develope the Safe Stop Bullet.

The hard cast or very sharp shoulder plated wadcutter works great.
It worked great for Jim.

JayBird686 · Jun 7, 2011

Photoman44 said:
I'm always interested in how divisive the wadcutter issue can be. It's a perfectly viable alternative for many who can't tolerate recoil (for medical or other reasons).

As far as a +P wadcutter, I'm not aware of any factory loads like that. The previosly mentioned Buffalo Bore load will surely satisfy your thirst for "hot" wadcutter loads. They kick like a mule in J frame Airweights!

I am not concerned with recoil that much, the wadcutter seems to have proven itself as a SD round, so why not give it a bit more kick.

I will have to get some Buffalo Bore.

revolvergeek · Jun 7, 2011

It is worth remembering that the idea of shooting wadcutters for defensive loads is nothing new. Years ago Peters marketed a .38 special Service Wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet at 850 fps. I have seen pictures of boxes and ammo. McGivern makes a very brief reference to them in his book.

I also have scans of an old S&W add for the 2" M&P in .38 spl from the 20s or 30s that discussed the use of the Mid Range Wadcutter as an option when you wanted a lighter load because "the sharp shouldered design of this wad cutter makes it an extraordinarily effective man-stopper at short ranges" and "the design of the bullet acts to reduce ... the possibility of the bullet ricocheting and injuring bystanders".

CTG_COLLECTOR · Jun 7, 2011

pete950 said:
I guess the Late Jim Cirillo didn't know what he was talking about.
The guy that was on the NYC Stake out Unit that was the unit that was involved in 48 shoot outs which he was involved in 17 of them,
He used a handloaded warmer wadcutter load. He then went on to develope the Safe Stop Bullet.

The hard cast or very sharp shoulder plated wadcutter works great.
It worked great for Jim.

The Safe Stop bullet design is not just a standard WC design. It was also a complete failure like many other propritary designed bullets designed back in the 80s and early 90s. It saw very limited production as a reloading component and it is nearly impossible to find the bullets even as collector items. And IIRC, Fuzzy Fletcher is the holder of the Safe Stop bullet patent and even he isn't currently producing the bullet.

The only reason people started using WC ammo and loading their own reversed hollow base WC bullets is because of the standard service loads back then were RN, FMJ/Matal Capped and SWC in profile. And all of these loads, including the WC, were poor performers.

If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?

Of all the photos that I have of 38Spl WC boxes, both pre and post WWII, not one of them states that they were designed for SD use. If they have any printing at all, they say "Sharp Shoulder", "Target", "Match", "Police Match", "Super Match" etc.

Unless one lives in NJ and are forbidden from using HP ammo for SD, there is absolutely no reason not to use a modern JHP bullet. If recoil is a concern then pick a standard pressure JHP load and leave the WC loads for punching paper as they were designed for.

+P Wadcutter

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