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06-27-2014, 02:14 AM
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Hornady Critical Defense or Duty for Home Defense In FS M&P9? .. OR SOMETHING ELSE???
So I am trying to decide what is the best option for me when using my M&P9 Pro CORE 5"
I assume the Defense is the best option as what I gather it loses speed fast after impact which would help with accidental penetration of walls and injury or worse of innocent people. Ans I know these are made for smaller short barreled HD or concealed carry weapons as well.
But on the other hand I want something that gonna have some knock down power and the Duty has the heavier 135g and 135g+P rounds that seem like they have SO much more power, velocity, and penetration to them then the Defense rounds.
I have been told these are Excellent rounds for HD but what is the best option for me?
I'm shooting a 9mm to defend myself and not a .45 with the hard-core knock down power ... I want a bullet that is gonna bridge that gap THE MOST and give me the best defensive power and reliability of a 9mm Luger round to drop a bad guy.
If you can help me make the best choice for my defensive situation, caliber, and gun size between these two and why I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks so much
Last edited by falconman515; 07-01-2014 at 02:23 AM.
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06-27-2014, 02:48 AM
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Either one will do the job if you get a good hit. Neither one will do the job if you don't. Pick the gun you shoot the best in the size you can hide in a caliber you can handle and get ammo for.
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06-27-2014, 05:08 AM
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Pick the round you shoot best and don't worry about it. I tried out a number of different SD rounds in various configurations and found that I shoot Corbon DPX 115 +p the best (I also keep the DPX cartridge in my 45)
I believe in the end though there is no magic bullet... placement is king!
Last edited by fdw; 06-27-2014 at 05:09 AM.
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06-27-2014, 05:16 AM
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Does anyone have experience or testing results of these 2 rounds side by side etc. in a standard FS gun and what is better and why?
Reason is I plan on buying 1 box of 25 ... shooting 15 to make sure they cycle and keeping a clip of 10 in the nightstand and being done and hope all goes well if ever needed.
Just want to know what round would be better and what most people prefer for this scenario as I won't be "practicing" with these rounds at all ... its a one box and done deal and that the magazine that is ready to defend, and I have narrowed it down to one of these two.
Thanks for the replies ... just curious what you think is best between the two
Thanks
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06-27-2014, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
Does anyone have experience or testing results of these 2 rounds side by side etc. in a standard FS gun and what is better and why?
Reason is I plan on buying 1 box of 25 ... shooting 15 to make sure they cycle and keeping a clip of 10 in the nightstand and being done and hope all goes well if ever needed.
Just want to know what round would be better and what most people prefer for this scenario as I won't be "practicing" with these rounds at all ... its a one box and done deal and that the magazine that is ready to defend, and I have narrowed it down to one of these two.
Thanks for the replies ... just curious what you think is best between the two
Thanks
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Doc Roberts data is always a good place to start:
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
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06-27-2014, 07:58 AM
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Holy **** that's a lot of foreign to me info!
Ya I can't make heads or tails of most of that ... but some great info i'm sure once I figure out what it all means. LOL
Just trying to decide which to get here really is all between the two.
I will be sure to read this though when I know more and learn about it.
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06-27-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llando88
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great place to start, +1
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06-27-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
Holy **** that's a lot of foreign to me info!
Ya I can't make heads or tails of most of that ... but some great info i'm sure once I figure out what it all means. LOL
Just trying to decide which to get here really is all between the two.
I will be sure to read this though when I know more and learn about it.
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Indeed, but take it for what it's worth from another new shooter.
The advice you are getting in this thread is sound:
"Purchase any SD round that runs in your gun with zero malfunctions, that you can accurately shoot."
Based on input from the knowledgeable members of this forum, I ended up selecting Speer Gold Dot 124+P. I'm fairly certain it will do the job if I need it.
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06-27-2014, 08:41 AM
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As I am sure you know, based on Hornady's description of the two types of ammunition:
Critical Defense is "optimized" for performance (penetration and expansion) against a subset of the FBI test protocol. That is in Gel and cloth covered Gel.
Critical Duty is also "optimized" for performance against intermediate barriers such as windshield glass, drywall, and automobile sheet metal. So there is a trade off being done to perform well enough after barriers, but this impacts performance without barriers.
From the limited testing I have read about, Critical Defense tends to expand more and penetrate ok in the non-barrier, cloth-only-barrier Gel tests, and Critical Duty tends to penetrate more and expand less in those tests.
So, if you are choosing between these two types for at home purposes, then unless you want " better" performance for targets behind drywall or like more penetration in general, I would recommend the Critical Defense.
Ultimately the choice is yours, and I believe either type would be ok to use. That is, As long as they function well in your handgun.
Last edited by LoadEmUp; 06-27-2014 at 08:44 AM.
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06-27-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
Does anyone have experience or testing results of these 2 rounds side by side etc. in a standard FS gun and what is better and why?
Reason is I plan on buying 1 box of 25 ... shooting 15 to make sure they cycle and keeping a clip of 10 in the nightstand and being done and hope all goes well if ever needed.
Just want to know what round would be better and what most people prefer for this scenario as I won't be "practicing" with these rounds at all ... its a one box and done deal and that the magazine that is ready to defend, and I have narrowed it down to one of these two.
Thanks for the replies ... just curious what you think is best between the two
Thanks
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If you can't buy more ammo than that to test your gun you should just use range ammo. At least you'll know it functions.
Critical Duty is the easy choice out of the two. More testing, more performance and 50 round boxes. Here's some for $28/50. I bet the 25 round boxes you're looking at are almost that.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornad...int-ammo-90225
Last edited by hatt; 06-27-2014 at 09:09 AM.
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06-27-2014, 01:46 PM
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Unless you intend to shoot targets through plywood, drywall, and automotive steel/glass on the regular, Critical Defense should fit the bill nicely.
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06-27-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMF
Unless you intend to shoot targets through plywood, drywall, and automotive steel/glass on the regular, Critical Defense should fit the bill nicely.
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Who gets to plan out gunfights? I'd prefer my SD loads to be capable of performing in as many ways as possible. Especially when it's as easy as choosing the next box.
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06-27-2014, 02:10 PM
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There is no such thing as "knock down power". And a 9 is as much "hard core" as the 45. If that was the case then you need a 357, which is a 9mm, because it has more ft/lbs energy than the 45.
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06-27-2014, 02:13 PM
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Ya I agree but some loads are better in what they do for self defense then a standard target load is all. Just wanting to know which is better in that area.
I think for my needs and not shooting and missing and going all the way through to the house next door it seems as if the Defense loads are better for that and still have the same overall impact on your target that more then likely will be within 25 odd feet from anyway if your lucky.
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06-27-2014, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt
Who gets to plan out gunfights? I'd prefer my SD loads to be capable of performing in as many ways as possible. Especially when it's as easy as choosing the next box.
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Realistically, in a civilian self-defense scenario where shots are fired, how often does the average person need to engage targets behind building materials or inside vehicles? Are there any documented cases of civilians failing to stop threats because their defensive ammo failed to penetrate these materials or retain enough weight to perforate vital organs deep inside the torso?
Carry what you want. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't know of any real-life civilian self-defense scenarios where having the ability to stop threats hiding behind walls or seated in automobiles made the difference between life or death.
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06-27-2014, 07:39 PM
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You can choose any ammo you feel comfortable with. The only thing I suggest is buying the 50 round box of whatever, maybe even 2. Since the SD ammo is what I really base me and my family's safety on, I like to run a few round through every time I go to the range, just to make sure my gun didn't pick up any bad habits. Its more $ up front, but way less per round than the 20 boxes.
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06-27-2014, 07:53 PM
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Pick the round you feel most comfortable with, but I caution you against locking in to one manufacturer versus another.
The FBI, in late 2013, made contract awards for four types of new 9mm ammo after exhaustive testing of the newest rounds. The types are (1) service, (2) training, (3) reduced lead training, and (4) frangible (for shooting steel targets during training).
The one they found that virtually duplicates the ballistic gelatin wound track of the .40 and .45 is the new generation of 147 grain 9mm bonded hollow points.
The FBI issued contracts in all four categories to Federal, for all but frangible to Winchester Olin, and for only frangible to Hornady. The Critical Duty and Defense rounds did not get selected.
The beauty of the new FBI ammo is that it is NOT Plus P, therefore it is quite mild to shoot and easy on the guns.
So, you might want to look to other brands if the Hornady does not work for you.
I think you should get something you are comfortable with in a premium load for defense. Confidence is everything.
The RFP and contract award notice is here:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=1
The 9mm ammo award has been made for the four types of ammo needed (service, training, reduced lead training and frangible) from three companies: (1) Federal-ATK for all four types; (2) Olin-Winchester for all but frangible; and (3) Hornady for only frangible.
Contract numbers and product numbers are:
Federal Cartridge Contract Number J-FBI-13-126 Service (54227), Training (53685), Reduced Lead Training (53690), Frangible (ZBC9P1FBI)
Olin-Winchester Contract Number J-FBI-13-127 Service (Q4392), Training (Q4395), Reduced Lead Training (Q4396)
Hornady Manufacturing Contract Number J-FBI-13-128 Frangible (90229)
Last edited by shawn mccarver; 06-27-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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06-27-2014, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMF
Realistically, in a civilian self-defense scenario where shots are fired, how often does the average person need to engage targets behind building materials or inside vehicles? Are there any documented cases of civilians failing to stop threats because their defensive ammo failed to penetrate these materials or retain enough weight to perforate vital organs deep inside the torso?
Carry what you want. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't know of any real-life civilian self-defense scenarios where having the ability to stop threats hiding behind walls or seated in automobiles made the difference between life or death.
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Civilian defense encounters are similar to police defense encounters. Same streets, same criminals. I see no reason to prepare for the most favorable scenario when it's just as easy to have additional capability.
I actually share your thinking when talking about carbine ammo. I figure M193/M855 is probably good enough. It's much cheaper and more available than top notch duty ammo. The chances of me having my carbine in an encounter are low. Along with the ball ammo still being quite effective. Now if the premium ammo was the same price or even lower(due to 50 round boxes), as in the case of the handgun ammo being discussed here, I'd certainly take the better ammo. I'm just about to break this habit since quality bonded .223 ammo is becoming so widely available. May as well get with the times.
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06-28-2014, 01:19 AM
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Ordering Critical Defense!
Thanks for the info guys!
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06-28-2014, 02:11 AM
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Glad we could be of help.
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06-28-2014, 03:35 AM
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I went through all the angst of this and here's where I settled, $0.75+ per round cheaper.
I've posted it before! It's even less than WWB at Walmart. Nice to be able to practice with exactly what you keep loaded
I'm sure I'll soon find out why I'm wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTaz-RlDOU
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06-28-2014, 04:02 AM
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Ya I plan ordering some UMC, PCM, Etc. for target shooting ... but ya, if you are talking about using that for SD, it's not really what most would say to use.
That ammo is really the ammo shooters go through thousands of on a daily basis for target practice.
I was inquiring more for Home Defense Rounds ... these are not in that category.
I am sure a couple of these plugged in a bad guy will do the trick, I just prefer something Meant for SD with large expansion and meant to inflict more damage then a standard target round.
Thats why those rounds are 30 cents per round on average as opposed to the SD rounds that really run in around a $1 a shot.
I am new to this so I could be wrong on same aspects but I just prefer the best while sitting next me at night is all.
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06-28-2014, 04:26 AM
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Don't know why you say that, they test out more than adequate. That's why I posted the video. Higher price doesn't always mean better. Caution if you pick some up. I've not seen the JHP in Cabelas, .... ONLY in Walmart. These are NOT the MC in the same green/white box or FMJ (yellow bulk box).
Do some research before you dump $1+ a round. If the higher cost makes you feel better, get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
Ya I plan ordering some UMC, PCM, Etc. for target shooting ... but ya, if you are talking about using that for SD, it's not really what most would say to use.
That ammo is really the ammo shooters go through thousands of on a daily basis for target practice.
I was inquiring more for Home Defense Rounds ... these are not in that category.
I am sure a couple of these plugged in a bad guy will do the trick, I just prefer something Meant for SD with large expansion and meant to inflict more damage then a standard target round.
Thats why those rounds are 30 cents per round on average as opposed to the SD rounds that really run in around a $1 a shot.
I am new to this so I could be wrong on same aspects but I just prefer the best while sitting next me at night is all.
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Last edited by smokindog; 06-28-2014 at 04:29 AM.
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06-28-2014, 04:58 AM
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I replied without watching the video.
Interesting ... I'm gonna have to keep an out for these at Wally World I think.
Curious what others have to say about these?
Would be good to practice a bit with what I will defend myself with to make sure I'm accurate with the round and it cycles perfect through my firearm.
Great info
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06-28-2014, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
I'm shooting a 9mm to defend myself and not a .45 with the hard-core knock down power ... [/B]
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Knockdown/stopping power is a myth. The incapacitation effect of any quality handgun round is dependent upon bullet placement.
Medical examiners can't tell the difference in wound channels between the various calibers, the differences between bullet designs in quality ammunition is insignificant.
Practice and place you shots well.
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06-28-2014, 06:25 AM
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Why would you load your weapon with ammunition specifically designed to penetrate barriers such as interior walls, for use inside your house? Do you keep slugs in your home defense shotgun?
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06-28-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badge130
Why would you load your weapon with ammunition specifically designed to penetrate barriers such as interior walls, for use inside your house? Do you keep slugs in your home defense shotgun?
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What handgun ammo doesn't penetrate sheetrock walls and other common building material? You use Glaser? Barrier blind ammo isn't designed to increase barrier penetration. It's designed to maintain integrity after passing through a barrier. And that barrier of concern is usually a windshield which is very hard on a bullet. I doubt there much difference at all through sheetrock and doors. If you're buying "standard" ammo because you think it's safer you're buying false security. You can go to box of truth and watch common bullets against wallboard, doors, etc.
Last edited by hatt; 06-28-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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06-28-2014, 10:36 AM
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06-28-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt
Civilian defense encounters are similar to police defense encounters. Same streets, same criminals. I see no reason to prepare for the most favorable scenario when it's just as easy to have additional capability.
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In many cases, the "top-tier" self defense rounds perform equally well in bare gel/4 layer denim/plywood/sheetrock/steel/glass. In the case of the OP's question, where he was choosing between Critical Defense and Critical Duty, he was better served with the former due to its better expansion characteristics. Sure, I could've recommended Gold Dots or Ranger-Ts or HSTs, but he specifically asked about the two Hornady loads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt
Now if the premium ammo was the same price or even lower(due to 50 round boxes), as in the case of the handgun ammo being discussed here, I'd certainly take the better ammo. I'm just about to break this habit since quality bonded .223 ammo is becoming so widely available. May as well get with the times.
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Unfortunately, such is not the case. I've only seen LE "barrier blind" loads sold in 20-rd boxes, and often at prices of $1 per round or more. Winchester RA556B for example sells for $1.65/rd. at SGAmmo, and their prices are typically pretty reasonable.
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06-28-2014, 12:53 PM
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"as in the case of the handgun ammo being discussed here"
Clearly the 50 round boxes were handgun ammo.
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06-28-2014, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt
"as in the case of the handgun ammo being discussed here"
Clearly the 50 round boxes were handgun ammo.
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Indeed. Just sharing my sentiments and what I've seen as far as pricing goes.
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06-28-2014, 01:06 PM
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06-28-2014, 05:50 PM
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It's all very confusing. Even the experts have different opinions. Many of the opinions given here are very valid. Really, how much better is one than the other. If it makes you feel more comfortable in your choice, got to YOU TUBE and watch videos on various ballistics tests. Most test with ballistics jell and denim to simulate a dressed person. They all show penetration, cavity size and expansion. Pick one.
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06-29-2014, 01:47 AM
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06-29-2014, 09:27 AM
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Law enforcement gunfights are often in and around vehicles. So they compromise a little with penetration. For civilian use I like the bullets that expand faster for less penetration. So I would say the Critical Defense rounds. I use the CorBon 115 gr load as penetration is limited.
You should shoot at least 50 rounds, better 100, of any self defense ammo you want to depend on.
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06-29-2014, 11:23 AM
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IMO these are all such academic discussions about the right bullet and treat every agency as though it were the middle of Detroit. I'd like to see what choices would be made if the ammunition weren't bought and paid for with MY money.
There is no doubt that these are good products but do you have to have the Lamborghini to head to the grocery store? Sure, if someone else is paying!
I live in the DFW area and can't remember any of the "shootout" scenarios that are referenced. In fact, it appears that most LEO involved shootings are suburban and MANY seem to lean a bit over to the excessive force side. We've had people shot and killed on their own properties for wielding a screw driver at 30 feet or other similar scenarios. I'm not trying to minimize the fact that bad situations happen but, LEO isn't in many top ten dangerous jobs list. I have multiple co-workers with a spouse in LEO. They'll tell you privately that very few of their peers should be carrying a weapon!!!! Again, LEO is a tough job but I think it's time to de-militarize their tactics. I mean really, does every gated community suburb need armored SWAT vehicles and separate squads
So, back on topic, ... get something that functions well, what makes you feel good, what you can practice with, and what you can afford.
Nations 10 most dangerous jobs - CBS News
America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead7544
Law enforcement gunfights are often in and around vehicles. So they compromise a little with penetration. For civilian use I like the bullets that expand faster for less penetration. So I would say the Critical Defense rounds. I use the CorBon 115 gr load as penetration is limited.
You should shoot at least 50 rounds, better 100, of any self defense ammo you want to depend on.
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06-29-2014, 12:44 PM
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look at You Tube for a video on Winchester 9mm STX. Note how it expands. Very impressive and ugly.
Last edited by Louchia; 06-29-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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07-01-2014, 02:21 AM
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After reading many threads and some pertaining to the M&P in general I am not to sure about this Hornaday Product in my M&P9 ... seems there have been issue with jamming and failed to feed etc.
Tossing around just finding a standard JHP round for SD like stated above. Still pricey for some though.
Seems I read a lot of good about Speer Gold Dot in M&P's as well ... Also Tons of good reviews and threads about Federal 124g+P HST (or even the Hydra-Shok reviews very good as well)... any thoughts on there???
I have since pulled the Hornaday CD from my shopping cart and will continue to research .,.. just bought some basic target rounds for now.
Any other thoughts in what shoots best in your M&P FS, Pro or CORE?
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M&P9 Shield, M&P9 CORE, S&W.38
Last edited by falconman515; 07-01-2014 at 02:41 AM.
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07-01-2014, 12:21 PM
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I've got Remington Golden Sabres in my 1911 and they have fed completely flawless so far and thats what I keep loaded up for HD. I think theres several options that you can't go wrong with and will do the job... Not just Hornady, or just Gold dots, or whatever. No need to over-think it in my opinion.
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07-01-2014, 03:08 PM
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These aren't cheap ... I'm just trying to figure the best ones with least issues etc.
I can't afford to try out a few boxes of this type of ammo is all but I want a solid SD round when sitting next to my bed.
I think from what I read the most often recommended SD round seems to be the Speer Gold Dot +P
I may just pay the slight extra and go with these and hope they feed and work perfect.
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07-01-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
These aren't cheap ... I'm just trying to figure the best ones with least issues etc.
I can't afford to try out a few boxes of this type of ammo is all but I want a solid SD round when sitting next to my bed.
I think from what I read the most often recommended SD round seems to be the Speer Gold Dot +P
I may just pay the slight extra and go with these and hope they feed and work perfect.
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You're going to rely on this ammo to protect your life and hope that they feed and work perfectly? Not a good plan.
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Minimize the variables
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07-01-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkreutz
You're going to rely on this ammo to protect your life and hope that they feed and work perfectly? Not a good plan.
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No ... I plan on buying a couple boxes and running them to Make Sure they feed and shoot good without any issues.
But I can't afford to try one brand then it not be good, then another brand, etc. .... this stuff is not like it's a box of 50 for $14.99
At over a $1 a round I want to start with the rounds that are the most popular for SD, less chance of failing to fire, jamming, proven reliable, etc. so I can just choose that one brand and make and and hope it runs flawless after testing a couple boxes at the range then leave a mag in the nightstand of it and count on it at that point after I run those boxes and confirm reliability.
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07-01-2014, 06:06 PM
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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?
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07-01-2014, 06:17 PM
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Ya those are what I was going to order but they we're from Cabellas and on sale for $19.99.
I like ordering from Midway but they had NO regular target 9mm ammo in stock of anything (PMC, UMC, Fiacci, Win, Etc.) at all and Cabellas had it all in stock so I had to order from there.
But I removed the Horn CD from my cart after reading around on some M&P forums and many users having issues with them ... and most all who had issues with the Hornaday CD said they went to Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST said they we're flawless.
So that made me pass on them and start thinking about taking some of that advice and going with one of these two instead of the CD.
I hear basically NOTHING but good and perfection with Gold Dot so really I think that's the route I will go ... just gotta find some in stock in now is all.
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07-01-2014, 06:36 PM
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Have you gone by your local Walmart? 9mm is pretty much a shelf item again around here. People may be able to help more if you indicated where you are......
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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?
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07-01-2014, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokindog
Have you gone by your local Walmart? 9mm is pretty much a shelf item again around here. People may be able to help more if you indicated where you are......
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I wish I was around where you are ... here in Fresno CA. I can't even find a box of cheap Federal 9mm target loads!!! Been to 4 of our Walmarts in my area.
I need to maybe call a couple of the gun shops to see what i can find ... but they mark this stuff up like crazy.
Ammo case at wally world is getting better but still not but maybe a 1/4 stocked yet if that ... and 9mm is Gone at the stores around me.
I ordered some random target loads (PMC, UMC, Fiocchi) from Cabellas last night so I'm good there for a couple months and a few trips to the range to test the new gun... just need to find some of these Green Dots to give them a whirl and fill a mag with em at my beside.
I think I'm good on what I will try ... thanks for all the info here guys.
I am still on the look out for those JHP Rem's Smokindog ... I may try them out if I can find em too.
Thanks again guys.
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M&P9 Shield, M&P9 CORE, S&W.38
Last edited by falconman515; 07-01-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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08-31-2014, 05:22 PM
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NO AMMO is "ideal" for indoors. Even the touted urban/home/safe bullets that are stupid expensive in testing have punched through drywall, insulation & wood. The key is hit what you are aiming at. Obviously, every scenario varies but, a miss is still a miss & the so called "safer" rounds aren't! Good quality known-proven defense ammo will serve you well: Federal, Speer, Winchester, Remington, Hornady are all good choices. Avoid the uber expensive boutique ammo. Unproven and very hyped up by marketing types with no real world experience.
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08-31-2014, 07:21 PM
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It's been said here twice before but bears repeating: no bullet from any handgun is going to send the recipient flying backward bum-over-teakettle as it's portrayed in the movies. A CNS hit may produce an immediate stop, but there are no guarantees for anything else regardless of caliber, velocity or bullet design.
What I carry and use for home defense is chosen based on a decades-long record of demonstrated effectiveness in real-world shootings, and my ability to shoot it. I don't expect knock-down power from it.
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Oh well, what the hell.
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09-02-2014, 11:18 AM
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I started this thread ... I ended up going with Speer Gold-Dot for my HD
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09-02-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515
I started this thread ... I ended up going with Speer Gold-Dot for my HD
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That is an outstanding pick.
The only thing I can add is after you shoot enough range ammo to insure your pistol
is working properly you need to shoot at least 100 (more is better) SD rounds to satisfy
yourself that "all is right".
Yes, I know they are expensive, but you need to bite the bullet and do it.
After all, what's your life worth?
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