The F.B.I. is going to the 9mm round as their agents carry caliber. The link tells the reasoning behind their decision, and their conclusion is particularly interesting.

FBI Decides On 9mm As Their #1 Choice And Have Tons Of Science Behind Their Decision | Concealed Nation

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Stay protected my friends.

GREAT read. You sure the government was involved in this study because it makes sense. Sure made me think. Glad my carbine and larger pistols all dine on 9mm. I do want to thank you for making this valuable text available to us. When I dial into which projectiles will serve me best I will feel more confident.
Again thanx.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

A little birdie tells me DHS is soon going to go this way also. Too much premature wear on the firearms (and what neither agency will tell you - too many problems with the poorer shooters and the .40.)

I wonder how much the study was biased toward lighter calibers that men and women can shoot.

Whatever, I've decided that the 9mm, .38/.357 calibers with new bullets work for me, and don't intend to carry a .45.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

"I wonder how much the study was biased toward lighter calibers that men and women can shoot."


A great point, one brought up about 115 years ago....

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Wonder where the 38 Super would fall in if there were more modern pistols made for it and the ammo was made in great quantities?

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Well it is a well known FACT that the 10MM was too much for the FBI agents to handle of light frame and ability.

The 40 is just a small step down and I can see where 70% of the rounds sent down range at longer distances can result in misses.

I can see where a 6" barreled 9mm might add to the scores down range with less recoil and more ammo with a long sight radius.

However the 40 works with the Highway Patrol and lots of Police departments, right now.

Heads or Tails ??

I guess they forgotten the Dade county incident which moved them to the 10 mm

I think id rather have 18 9mm than 8 .45

So..........I guess we will never have a caliber war again.....

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Actually no. It was politics.

The FBI never tested full power Norma ammunition during the trial because it wasn't available to them. One of the agents handloaded the ammunition himself. Winchester supplied the brass. Also one of the test stipulations was the gun and cartridge combination could not recoil more than the M1911A1 with 230gr ball ammunition. The load that was tested and marginally beat the others was a 180gr JHP at 980fps, not the 1300fps of the Norma ammunition.

The FBI complained about trigger groups breaking. S&W had a non-standard trigger system to work with the FBI protocol of prepping the trigger. It didn't have the standard S&W components the civilian models had. FBI canceled the contract and the 10mm, with an internal policy to never approve or issue another S&W firearm again. S&W got the last laugh when they teamed up with Winchester to develop the 40 S&W which duplicated the 180gr JHP @ 980fps ballistics of the 10mm the FBI used. The FBI adopted the 40 S&W. The FBI kept their word by not approving a S&W firearm, but they are using a cartridge with the S&W name on it.

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Adam
Disclaimer: type 07 FFL.

Of course they need plenty of reasons to justify reversing the decision that 9mm didn't cut it.

The thing I find puzzling is that the ammo with equal performance to 40 and 45 is often a +p or +p+ which puts the same wear and tear on the firearms and shooters. You can't get something for nothing and you can't cheat physics.

All I read was "bla bla bla bla...shot placement."

It's all well and good but I'm keeping my 40 and 45's. I can shoot them well and my choices in guns aren't wearing out anytime soon.

As mentioned, that's a well traveled myth.

The grip frames of the guns were a bit big, which was the issue 40 solved.

I'm of the opinion of using the biggest caliber that can be readily handled in a gun size you're willing to carry. No government study needed to justify that.

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

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Don Mundell

LOL.....looks like the 9mm,.40,.45 debate is alive and well.........LOL

9 vs. 45 vs. 40 vs. 10 vs. 357 vs. 38
semi auto vs. revolver
steel vs. alloy vs. polymer frame vs. 3D printed frame

this should keep Guns and Ammo busy with material for the next 50 years

I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ?

So true. The irony is the majority of current studies show that you're equally covered with the service caliber of your choosing in the handgun of your choosing. I'm okay, you're okay -- you'd think that would settle folks down.

Does this mean the great caliber debates are over? Will the S&W forum fold? Sure hope not.

Many thanks for posting the article and it certainly makes sense to me. We tend to confine our discussions to caliber "Stopping" effectiveness without considering the effect of the ammunition on the guns themselves or the person shooting them.

I am singularly responsible for my agency switching to autoloaders. But then, my agency switched from 9mm to 40 S&W after I retired, a move I would have opposed because I knew that some agents would have trouble firing acceptable scores. At the time, I was not aware of the increased wear upon firearms.

I suspect that, given the FBI's influence in police firearms training, agencies will again be going to the 9mm as their existing handguns need replacement.

Given the sea change improvements in defense ammo since '86, the ballistic lessons of the Miami Shootout can be forgotten.

Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help!
http://batr.org/sitebuildercontent/s...ds-585x455.jpg

I've always been of the opinion that until the hit rate can be significantly improved, fine tuning the projectile or the caliber is "noise" (I think the article reference 70-80% miss which we see all the time)!

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

Certainly skills can be improved and should be in constant training, but the 70-80% miss rate may say more about the nature of a violent encounter with a moving target who's shooting back than deficiencies in skill set.

Ultimately with any kill its shot placement and bullet construction but all things being equal the larger hole has an advantage.

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Len

I agree, my point was we'd be better off trying to resolve all those issues first, be it training, weapon design, ...! I'm sure this next comment will "draw fire" but I'm not sure all LEO should be armed, but that goes for a lot of other agencies as well. Stricter qualifications would get my support. I'd rather see LEO be "de-militarized" and revamped for today's world. If under pressure you can't put more than 30% of your shots on target, well, let's look at other options. It's not an easy answer and I have feelings on both sides of the argument. Not pretending to have all the answers but ...

Please, before the hate mail, I support LEO, I just don't support many of the tactics. I live in a Town of 70K with full out SWAT armored vehicles, ... We are in a LARGE metroplex. Perhaps a genuinely trained and properly deployed regional SWAT MIGHT be required but we don't need to have all these teams. The money could be better spent on patrol. Just my two cents.

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I have no doubt this will cut the FBI's budget allotment back considerably. Think of the savings the taxpayers will realize!

But what to do with the gazillion .40 rounds that the feds just purchased???

In all seriousness- why not choose a pistol (Glock 19/23, or Sig, or HK...) and let the end-user decide on the caliber? Would it really be that much of a logistical nightmare?

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Because of the metric system?

Great info good comments does anyone know the actual cartridge the will be using

158gr LSWCHP.............................. what goes around comes around!!! LOL

I stopped reading soon as I got to the part that says, "Handgun stopping power is simply a myth."

I stopped being a soldier in the caliber wars at least twenty-five years ago.

That said, if I ever find an old Browning Hi-Power in the condition I'm looking for, I'll buy it.

But even with the Browning, I'd still stick with my .45s.

Hit rates hovered below 20% even during revolver days when most officers carried 158 grain RN bullets in their 4" guns. The problem then was a lack of self confidence in double action shooting and training programs that included a single action phase.

Hit rates should theoretically improve by lessoning recoil and muzzle blast. But, following that logic to the extreme, should law enforcement go to the .22 Short?

I own several 9mms and I've fired the .40. First round hits are about the same for both calibers but subsequent hits with the .40 take a bit longer simply because there is more recoil to recover from. Throw in a bit of anxiety or even panic and it is understandable while people and LEOs tend to shoot holes in the air.

Forum member shawn mccarver's done some sleuthing trying to suss that out...

FBI's new 9mm ammo

What they are not saying is that there are a better selection of sub machineguns available in 9x19 than 40 S&W. You get back to the logistics of stocking ammo.

If it weren't for the female agents, and smaller stature male officers who found the 1006 too cumbersome to handel. Plus the fact that the low end .10 mm could be housed in a smaller case using a 9mm frame gun,the .10mm would be flourishing better these days.

Personaly I would never carry a 9mm for defense.Unless it was an upgraded caliber to the .380 in an ultra compact pistol.

>>> Does anyone know the actual cartridge they will be using ?

IIRC, at the present time, it appears to be a 147 gr. Bonded / JHP, of unknown mfgr. Personally, I can't see why they wish to adopt a ctg that equates the ballistics of the old 158 gr. .38 Spl.+P out of a 4" bbl. ? ( @ 147 gr. 9x19 = 950 - 1,050 FPS ) The FBI has always insisted on penetration in their handgun loads, & that's one of the reasons they prefer the 147's in 9mm. This duty caliber debate has been going on since the mid 1960's, with each side having their valid points. However, the law enf. Arena has been changing, both in composition of personnel, & with general budget concerns. These days, LEO's tend to be off all shapes, types, & genders. Many people just cant handle the larger calibers, where the 9mm tends to be manageable to the mass majority of trainees. ( Albeit with a bit of training. ) It's all been said before, "Put the rounds in the boiler room, and they will go down". Of all the 9mm's critics, the ONLY really valid concern is it's lack of stopping power, right ? With many of today's loadings, it appears as if the 9mm just might be what all the mid to large size agencies are looking for. It offers capacity, accuracy, controllability, lower ammo costs & it's size efficient in most of the pistols it's chambered in. "IF" the using agency issues one of the new generation loads, & takes the time to train it's people, I think the 9mm should do just fine, maybe.

ADDENDUM: I may be wrong with the 147 gr. projectile weight, as it appears that the FBI / DOJ may be leaning towards the Federal (ATK) 124 gr. HST loading for it's basic issue duty load. Personally, I like the Win. 127 gr. JHP+P+, but that's just me. There are currently a bunch of really good 124 - 135 gr. loadings available. As usual, it will probably be determined by the lowest bid.

dpast32

Is it possible that a government influence peddler that stands to gain mightily from this, has just pulled off another drain on our pockets?

M

I don't know why a .40 cal gun that was BUILT to be a .40 cal gun would have any more wear issues than any caliber pistol.

The adage has always been 'bigger is better, IF you can handle it". Obviously the average agent couldn't handle the .40 well enough.

Why can't the agency adopt two pistols? A 9mm and a REAL .40 would cover about anything.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I attended a Hostage Negotiators class put on by the FBI in 1983. They were just trading in their 9mms for .40 callibers & 10mms. The science hasn't changed since then. Those guys just like to have new guns. (and cars, and planes, and boats, and suits, and sun-glasses…)

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Why, I aughta.....

It's known in some circles as the 'Brother-in-Law Effect'.

A 9 or 40 is nice but...........
you can't swap ammo in a fire fight.

Now a 357 and 38 is different but they don't usually hold
10 to 18 rounds.

BIG is nice, most say .......but the little 357 MAGNUM is still
plenty of gun for me with a little 125gr JHP at just factory speeds.

With the right powder you can..................
"Cook and drop them" with just one shot at close range.

And yet, the military is looking to abandon the 9mm for something larger with more stopping power having found the 9mm doesn't put the enemy down fast enough.

And I preface by saying I do not know the answer .... but could that decision be based on what I understand to be their required use of FMJ????

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

The military doesn't get to play with bonded JHP's either. Well, at least they're not supposed to...

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Because of the metric system?

For the record, a federal LEO agency may put out a request for bids on ammunition. However, they specify exactly what they are looking for and ammo manufacturers who believe they can meet those specifications may submit bids.

If a company comes out with a breakthrough in ammunition, the federal agency may put out a "sole-source" contract, meaning that only one manufacturer can meet their current ammunition standard, therefore, they are not going to follow the bidding process.

Once a contract is in effect, any other federal law enforcement agency may buy ammo under the terms of the contract without having to invite bids. At least, that's the way I remember it.

A History of FBI Handguns - American Rifleman

similar conclusion .. interesting to read

Darn. I just gave my son my Glock 17 and kept my P99 and 1911.

The level of interest in these threads always amazes me.

This should matter to about 12,000 FBI agents and a couple of hundred FBI uniformed police. We don't issue ammo to any other agencies. NYPD, Chicago PD, and the East Bumfudge Heights Sheriff's Office can still issue and carry whatever ammo they like.

This has nothing to do with small guys and females ("runts and *****" in the vernacular) not being able to qualify. After 21 weeks in the Academy, where a New Agent fires about 10,000 rounds, you can either shoot or you don't graduate. I was a Bureau Firearms Instructor for about 15 years - our people can shoot.

Its about money. 9mm is cheaper, its easier on the guns, and according to our ammo gurus it is just as effective as anything else. So why pay more? Its your money we're spending after all. And this is from a guy who paid his own money 23 years ago for a Sig P220 and has carried it ever since. (I just found my first paystub going through some stuff. I took home $846. The Sig was $533. The Mrs was not happy.)

Guys with .40s will keep their .40s unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. Old farts like me and SWAT guys will still carry .45s or whatever has been grandfathered in. Birds will sing, dogs will bark, and bad guys shot between the shirt pockets will still fall down.

Current issue 9mm (yes, we have allowed 9mms since forever) is the 147 grain Gold Dot. I suspect it will continue. .40 is a 180 grain Winchester bonded JHP. .45 ACP is a 230 grain Golden Saber. 10mm (yep, still have those) is a 190 grain Federal JHP.

I have to carry whatever ammo they give me. Since in my case it is a big fat .45 hollowpoint, I'm fine. (Also, the price is right.) I'd probably be fine with the issue 9mm, too. Other agents are welcome carry the issue 9mm or pony up for a .40 or .45 ACP. But if you don't work for the FBI, why would anyone care?

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

What do you guys really expect from a bunch of lawyers that happen to carry guns. First of all if the government wanted a study and those conducting the study wanted shoulder fired nukes that's what the study would prove. I wonder what % of FBI guys ever have to actually use their weapons compared to real LEOs. I could care less what the FBI carries.The difference in the cost of the guns and the ammo maters to government spending like a drop of water maters to the ocean

/thread.

Outstanding post.

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Take your time, fast. J.Hughes

That's all good, but there is no such thing as a "well placed shot". Even a head shot can be deflected by bone or even flesh. There is not a 100% guarantee of exactly how a bullet will react when it hits flesh and bone regardless of the caliber. The "spray mentality" you describe is ridiculous. It's simply smarter to have a few extra shots available to get the job done if needed.

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M&P Shield 9MM

It matters to many of us non-FBI agents for the same reason that NASCAR technology interest us non-Racers: We are enthusiast...and there's nothing wrong with that.

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Stay protected my friends.