.41 rimfire long?

Breakaway500 · #1 03-15-2017, 05:23 PM

While at my FFL the other day,he showed me a box of very old rimfire ammo someone had brought in. He said it was .38 rimfire,but it's not. (I have an old Bacon revolver in .38 rimfire so I always look for ammo for it)
No markings on the box,no lid. The cartridge measures just under an inch long (.990") and just about .407" in diameter,so I'm thinking it must be .41 rimfire long..from what I have seen online,but not much info is available.The cartridge has a raised H in the middle,which seems to indicate Winchester manufacture,but not confirmed.
Anyone have any ideas as to what this round fits? I paid him $40 for the box assuming it would fit my Bacon,and I can return it..but chances are it will then end up in the trash. What to do?

ammodave · #2 03-15-2017, 05:55 PM

Sounds like .41 short rimfire .41 Short - Wikipedia

Breakaway500 · #3 03-15-2017, 06:01 PM

The .41 rimfire short is...shorter, at .913" in length. These are .990" long. A couple of these show signs of a extremely light strike at 12 and 6 o'clock. I think I read somewhere a Henry repeater had two firing pins for the .41 rimfire? I imagine someone started to use this box with a malfunctioning weapon,figured the cartridges were no good,and either gave them away/traded or put them aside and never touched them again (not to be trusted). Just a guess...

Alk8944 · #4 03-15-2017, 09:43 PM

Based on case proportions, length/diameter, these appear to be .41 Long rimfire. You cannot base identification on overall length as maximum/minimum lengths for the short and long actually overlap. The long/short designation is strictly based on case length!

Per Suydam the .LOA for the .41 short ranges from .890" to 1.002" for the samples he had. The long LOA ranges from .962" to 1.140", again for the samples he measured.

Henry rifles were never chambered for either .41 cartridge but the .44 Henry. So all the two strikes probably mean is two separate attempts to fire were tried and just happened to be opposed by ca. 180 degrees. The "H" headstamp has always indicated Winchester manufacture, The letter commemorates B. Tyler Henry, who was Winchester's chief engineer and I believe foreman.

On a round item like a cartridge how can you determine that a mark on the rim is at 6 o'clock, 12 o'clock, or any other position?

Breakaway500 · #5 03-15-2017, 10:19 PM

The strikes are equally opposed..so 12 and 6. Or 3 and 9...etc. There are 3 or 4 like that..at the end of the box. Maybe someone put these in a .44 rimfire and attempted to fire them? I don't know..just guessing.

I think I'll keep them..just in case I come across a .41 long rimfire gun.Got to be one out there..

StakeOut · #6 03-15-2017, 10:55 PM

Dixie Gun Works sells new production Navy Arms.41 Short box of 50 for $55 while the same Navy Arms ammo on GB is bidding at $137.Go figure?

Breakaway500 · #7 03-16-2017, 06:58 AM

GB is basically like Ebay..prices can get so far from reality all you can do is shake your head..

desi2358 · #8 03-16-2017, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StakeOut

Dixie Gun Works sells new production Navy Arms.41 Short box of 50 for $55 while the same Navy Arms ammo on GB is bidding at $137.Go figure?

How old is your Dixie catalog? They don't show that ammo on their website (or on Navy Arms own website or Old Western Scrounger which they own) and I haven't seen that ammo available anywhere except as old stock for years. Reportedly the last run of that ammo was made in the late 90's and after it finally sold out Navy Arms decided not to contract for any more. I would love to hear that they had more made as I have several old guns I would be able to shoot a little more often if new ammo was available (especially at more affordable prices).

desi2358 · #9 03-16-2017, 10:05 AM

To the OP, pretty much any obsolete rim fire round has become at least somewhat collectible. The 41 Long was intended primarily for guns such as the Colt House series revolvers and I am sure you would have no trouble finding someone interested in it as a collectible. Not really shooter ammo anyway as it ceased production a long time ago.

DWalt · #10 03-16-2017, 04:21 PM

COTW says the .41 Long RF was used by the Colt New Line revolvers. "The Enterprise #4, Favorite #4, Forehand & Wadsworth, Webley, and other revolvers were available in this caliber. A few cheap single shot rifles also chambered it. It has been obsolete since the 1920s."

The .41 Short RF was used principally in various Derringers, such as the Remington Double Derringer.

COTW gives the case lengths of the .41 Short RF and .41 Long RF as .467" and .635" respectively. Both have case diameters of .406"-.407". I'd bet you have a box of .41 Long RF. Too bad you don't have the full cardboard box.

StakeOut · #11 03-16-2017, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desi2358

How old is your Dixie catalog? They don't show that ammo on their website (or on Navy Arms own website or Old Western Scrounger which they own) and I haven't seen that ammo available anywhere except as old stock for years. Reportedly the last run of that ammo was made in the late 90's and after it finally sold out Navy Arms decided not to contract for any more. I would love to hear that they had more made as I have several old guns I would be able to shoot a little more often if new ammo was available (especially at more affordable prices).

You may be right that they are out of stock.You find it out only when checking out.

Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies.

Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies.

cadmike · #12 03-16-2017, 05:48 PM

Well regardless it would be a shame for that ammo to end up in the trash. If you post a want to sell add here on the forum it would surely sell.