Fired from the typical S&W Military & Police/Model 10 or Colt Official Police four-inch barreled revolver - the ubiquitous side arm of uniformed LEOs from the 1970s through the transition to semiautomatic pistols - would any of the Remington/Winchester/Federal 38 Special +P LSWC-HP ammunitions effective against car doors? Would any penetrate a car door of the circa 1970s American-made sedan and retain its self-defense effectiveness?
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Effectiveness of "FBI" 38 Special ammunition?
- Thread starter Naphtali
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The metal, glass, and plastic in the door is definitely going to slow and deform any bullet, greatly reducing its terminal effectiveness.
Remember what Dirty Harry Callahan said, "The .357 is a good weapon but I've seen .38s bounce off windshields." LOL!
Remember what Dirty Harry Callahan said, "The .357 is a good weapon but I've seen .38s bounce off windshields." LOL!
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
How would a model 28 "do better"? A Model 28 is chambered in .357 Magnum, and is of course capable of shooting .38 Special ammunition, but how would it "do better" with the same ammo that the OP was asking about? If you're saying that there would be better results (penetration) if the user was shooting .357 Magnum ammunition from a Model 28, then there might be slightly better performance in my opinion, but I wouldn't think it would be substantially better.
Regards,
Dave
daddy bear
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Not in a movie, but in real life. I have seen 158 grain ..38s ricochet off windshields and rear glass, leaving only a smear. IIRC, the FBI load was a 110 grain bullet. Effective as a bullet against live targets, but not against vehicles. I still have several hundred "Treasury" loads which I think are the same thing.
Jack
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I doubt any .38 Special round of that era would have been consistently effective against metal barriers; probably a .357 (or .38/44 Heavy Duty equivalent load) would. But that would have been when rifled slugs out of a 12 gauge would have been good to use 
The "Treasury" load was the 110 gr +P+, rumored to be why early model 640s were engraved "Tested for..."
The "Treasury" load was the 110 gr +P+, rumored to be why early model 640s were engraved "Tested for..."
oysterer
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I think the model 28 was quite common as a LEO carry in those days and a 357 out of a model 28 of course is what I meant would be better than a model 10 with 38 +P. But I still think even 357 hollow points could be substantially deformed and slowed down to be effective beyond the doors. Not by the sheet metal alone but by various hardware inside the door.
So let's speed things up and use a model 58 41 magnum and not worry about 38 +P. But those were rare and not many departments used them. I love mine.
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The old FBI round was ineffective as a car door penetrator, but it was a very effective anti-personnel round. A neighboring large municipal department used to issue that round, and I can't remember too many OIS where the suspect survived.
My agency carried the 110 grain +P+ Treasury round, but I would have much preferred the FBI round, which I carried in my backup and off-duty Model 60.
My agency carried the 110 grain +P+ Treasury round, but I would have much preferred the FBI round, which I carried in my backup and off-duty Model 60.
bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
Some 10 years ago or so I tested a .38 Special 158 grain +P load against a 1992 Dodge pickup right front fender. Really it was just preparatory to a test of various .380 ACP and .25 ACP loads and all done just for fun.
Fired from a Model 10 Heavy Barrel, the 158 grain lead SWC slug did penetrate the fender and an inner fender, striking a carefully positioned target disc with force enough to spin it over. Now the discs on that particular homemade target will only flip over, and flip over a single time for +P 158 grain .38 Special loads or 147 grain 9mm loads when squarely struck without an intervening obstruction. No other .38 Special or 9mm loadings, +P or not will manage to do more than set the discs to swinging. The discs pinwheel merrily when struck with .45 ACP, which is what desired by the fellow who made the target. Does it prove a thing? Nope, but I'm not hiding behind automotive sheet metal in an effort to be secure from incoming .38 Special rounds.
Fired from a Model 10 Heavy Barrel, the 158 grain lead SWC slug did penetrate the fender and an inner fender, striking a carefully positioned target disc with force enough to spin it over. Now the discs on that particular homemade target will only flip over, and flip over a single time for +P 158 grain .38 Special loads or 147 grain 9mm loads when squarely struck without an intervening obstruction. No other .38 Special or 9mm loadings, +P or not will manage to do more than set the discs to swinging. The discs pinwheel merrily when struck with .45 ACP, which is what desired by the fellow who made the target. Does it prove a thing? Nope, but I'm not hiding behind automotive sheet metal in an effort to be secure from incoming .38 Special rounds.
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Hide behind the engine block or wheels..... 
........ IIRC one of the reasons the .357 became popular in the 1930s with Highway Patrols and State Troopers was its ability to penetrate automobiles.
As a Motorcycle officer in 1938 my Dad opted for a 6" Colt New Service in .357 for his duty gun.......by the late 60s as a Captain he mostly carried a two or four inch .38 with "Police Only" +P .38 SWCHP ammo. But that old Colt was in his desk drawer loaded with IIRC .357 158 grain soft points.
........ IIRC one of the reasons the .357 became popular in the 1930s with Highway Patrols and State Troopers was its ability to penetrate automobiles.As a Motorcycle officer in 1938 my Dad opted for a 6" Colt New Service in .357 for his duty gun.......by the late 60s as a Captain he mostly carried a two or four inch .38 with "Police Only" +P .38 SWCHP ammo. But that old Colt was in his desk drawer loaded with IIRC .357 158 grain soft points.
Retired Cop
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Back in the 70s and early 80s there was much debate about the Police's "need" for .357 magnum ammo..... a lot of the hot .38s sold as "Police only"/"Law Enforcement only" were really light .357s loaded in .38 cases to avoid the politics.
SuperMan
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FBI loads...no...
Friend on Dallas PD who is now a deputy chief was involved in a shooting with some robbery suspects back about 1980. Fired two rounds at the windshield of the suspect vehicle as it closed on him putting both rounds right in front of the driver...both bounced off. He stepped aside and fired three rounds at the drivers door unfortunately hitting the door not the window..distance probably 3'...left three dents in the door... A few days later he switched to a 6.5" Model 27-2 with real .357s on board.
Friend and I were at the DPD range practicing about 1981. I had a .38 Super and my friend a Browning HP 9mm. There was a stand on the corner USPS Mail Box that had seen better days so we added two more rounds to the box... Both were lead TC ammo not overly warm...both went through both sides of the box. A friend, who just retired last year, showed up with his city issue 64 and city issue FBI load... We showed him our holes and he decided to try...at the shot I stated laughing...exact quote.."why are you laughing...you are always laughing at my city issue.." I said..."Because your bullet is stuck in the side of the mail box"... "It is not"...but upon inspection it was... He backed off and tried again putting another round right next to the first...with the same results... He showed up a few days later with a 27-2 6.5" with real .357 ammo...
In 1972 I was working for US Customs in Houston. One of the guys I met had a son who was with Houston PD. The son was a rookie during the 68 riots and had a gunfight with two guys hiding behind a stand on the corner USPD mail box... He was across the street behind a telephone pole. He emptied his .38 revolver at the pair and as he was reloading a car came and picked up the two shooters. A few days later he was able to inspect the box and there were 5 dents in the side...he went out and bought a 57 6" nickel.... Not sure if this was the FBI load or just RN...would have made no difference anyway.
Bob
Friend on Dallas PD who is now a deputy chief was involved in a shooting with some robbery suspects back about 1980. Fired two rounds at the windshield of the suspect vehicle as it closed on him putting both rounds right in front of the driver...both bounced off. He stepped aside and fired three rounds at the drivers door unfortunately hitting the door not the window..distance probably 3'...left three dents in the door... A few days later he switched to a 6.5" Model 27-2 with real .357s on board.
Friend and I were at the DPD range practicing about 1981. I had a .38 Super and my friend a Browning HP 9mm. There was a stand on the corner USPS Mail Box that had seen better days so we added two more rounds to the box... Both were lead TC ammo not overly warm...both went through both sides of the box. A friend, who just retired last year, showed up with his city issue 64 and city issue FBI load... We showed him our holes and he decided to try...at the shot I stated laughing...exact quote.."why are you laughing...you are always laughing at my city issue.." I said..."Because your bullet is stuck in the side of the mail box"... "It is not"...but upon inspection it was... He backed off and tried again putting another round right next to the first...with the same results... He showed up a few days later with a 27-2 6.5" with real .357 ammo...
In 1972 I was working for US Customs in Houston. One of the guys I met had a son who was with Houston PD. The son was a rookie during the 68 riots and had a gunfight with two guys hiding behind a stand on the corner USPD mail box... He was across the street behind a telephone pole. He emptied his .38 revolver at the pair and as he was reloading a car came and picked up the two shooters. A few days later he was able to inspect the box and there were 5 dents in the side...he went out and bought a 57 6" nickel.... Not sure if this was the FBI load or just RN...would have made no difference anyway.
Bob
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In the early 1970's I spent a lot of time shooting up cars to check penetration. If the windows were up and you were shooting at right angles to the door, a lot of rounds would enter the car interior. We did also use 3/4 plywood targets to see if there was enough energy to inflict a serious wound, but I don't recall those results.
The real issue was if there was any angle to the shot, virtually nothing went through, if it did, the deflections were weird and unpredictable. Even with .44 Magnum Kieth loads that would enter the trunk and leave through the grill on a straight on shot.
I recall an IPSC match in the 1980s where the Director used his new truck as "cover" for one of the stages. One of a group of cops from the local big city pulled a round low firing over the bed. We heard the impact and when the line was clear, we ran forward to look at the expected holes in the fender. No holes. The issue 158 RNL round impacted the inside lip of the bed where the outer & inner fender panels are spot welded together and only dented the metal. Didn't even knock the paint off.
The stories above about mail boxes are concerning. They used to be touted as cover.
The real issue was if there was any angle to the shot, virtually nothing went through, if it did, the deflections were weird and unpredictable. Even with .44 Magnum Kieth loads that would enter the trunk and leave through the grill on a straight on shot.
I recall an IPSC match in the 1980s where the Director used his new truck as "cover" for one of the stages. One of a group of cops from the local big city pulled a round low firing over the bed. We heard the impact and when the line was clear, we ran forward to look at the expected holes in the fender. No holes. The issue 158 RNL round impacted the inside lip of the bed where the outer & inner fender panels are spot welded together and only dented the metal. Didn't even knock the paint off.
The stories above about mail boxes are concerning. They used to be touted as cover.
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Soft lead bullets were never intended for shooting through metal; too much deformation at impact reduces penetration. The .38-44 .38 Special load was developed in the 30's to engage felons in automobiles. There were round nosed Metal Point 158 gr bullets that addressed the problem too. I have some 150 gr.38 and 158 gr .357 pointed, metal penetrating rounds from the 70's. They both have decent penetration in car doors provided that no heavy structures inside the door are hit.
While I’m not doubting any of the stories here I can only relate my own experiences. In one gunfight I did shoot through the front windshield of an old Dodge using my Colt DS loaded w/ high velocity 158 grain lead round nose. In one other instance, using my issued 4” Model 15 loaded w/the +P 158 grain hollow point, I dropped a suspect who was holding a hostage at knife point. I never had to shoot through a car door but did work one case where officers did shoot through a car door using their issued Glock 23 but cannot recall what round was used beyond a hollowpoint.
Angle of shot into metal or auto glass not only affects trajectory and how the bullet impacts initially, but also increases the depth to be penetrated. It was the main reason why they sloped armor on tanks, if you hit something at a 30 degree angle it meant penetrating double the amount of the material, armor or otherwise. Things like armor plate can quadruple their protection when being doubled, and certain materials will gain more resistance in the same way (car sheet metal might resist a round more than 200% even if the actual extra material to pierce is technically 200% due to a 30 degree angle hit). Small changes can lead to massive differences in final performance in real life situations.
Add in changes to metalurgy of car doors, hardness of the particular factory swaged bullet you are firing, how "hot" your rounds are running in your particular service revolver, we cannot be surprised if real life experiences come back with vastly different outcomes. Ford Pinto or my Lincoln Mk5? As has been stated, glass is where during the shootout, rolled down leaves no protection in the windowed area but also means rounds through the door have to pierce through the door AND the window. Everything affects everything.
As for end performance. even high end modern hollow points are known for lack of expansion after punching through barriers, simply boils down to lack of power after punching through material. The FBI load probably would not either, of course. One could argue that the SJHP is superior in revolvers over JHP bullets, but modern JHP's are suggested for those who still carry them because the full jacket protects the hollow point from deformation when fired through solid barriers. In any case, I wouldn't count on them expanding.
Add in changes to metalurgy of car doors, hardness of the particular factory swaged bullet you are firing, how "hot" your rounds are running in your particular service revolver, we cannot be surprised if real life experiences come back with vastly different outcomes. Ford Pinto or my Lincoln Mk5? As has been stated, glass is where during the shootout, rolled down leaves no protection in the windowed area but also means rounds through the door have to pierce through the door AND the window. Everything affects everything.
As for end performance. even high end modern hollow points are known for lack of expansion after punching through barriers, simply boils down to lack of power after punching through material. The FBI load probably would not either, of course. One could argue that the SJHP is superior in revolvers over JHP bullets, but modern JHP's are suggested for those who still carry them because the full jacket protects the hollow point from deformation when fired through solid barriers. In any case, I wouldn't count on them expanding.
I was issued a S&W Model 10 with a 4" bull barrel. It was a 1986 vintage and we were issued 158 gr., LSWC in 38 spl.+P. My Model 10 was rated for +P ammo. The issued rounds bounced of tires, but went through fenders and car doors. It would go through a windshield if it was sort of straight on, It would deflect if it hit on an angle. I liked my Model 10 and felt comfortable with the 158 +P service round. While it wasn't the end all round it did it's job. I think a .357 Magnum out of a 28 would have been better, but that wasn't an option.
REM 3200
US Veteran
Back in the early 70s, a LEO wrote in an article about .38 Spl being shot at cars.
His comment was "Halt, or I'll scratch up your paint".
I don't remember his name, I think he was LAPD.
His comment was "Halt, or I'll scratch up your paint".
I don't remember his name, I think he was LAPD.
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