38 Spl 158 gr RNL adequate for S&W 442

I heard from old cops in the know (Metro police) that the 38 Spl 158 gr RNL is adequate for SD use in J frame 442. I understand that they have adequate penetration, and are sighted for the J frame. I’ve shot many 158 gr RNL reloads at factory velocity and I’m very accurate with the load. I intend to purchase Remington’s 38 Spl 158 gr RNL cartridges (ones with nickel cases).

What is your opinions of the 158 gr RNL in the 442?

I do not want to use 38 Spl +P.

I would probably buy some of Buffalo Bore's full wadcutter loads at full velocity. Not mid-range wadcutters. Velocity is about 850 FPS, and I bet it comes a lot closer to that spec than most factory RNL loads will. This is not Plus P ammo. I think BB is the only company now making full power wadcutter ammo in this caliber.

The load you mentioned is probably the absolute worst choice in .38 Special ammo and is what gave the cartridge a poor reputation for stopping power. I'm not being rude, but you asked and deserve an honest answer.

Mid-range wadcutters are not to be sneezed at. They had a excellent reputation back in the day when most cops carried .38 special revolvers. One advantage is that they have low recoil with good penetration.

Of all the .38 Spl. loads available the 158 gr, RNL is the poorest of them all for defensive use. Better choices would be either the Remington or Winchester 158 gr, LSWCHP, the so-called FBI load, or the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. LSWCHP or 148 gr. full power Wad-Cutter. Even the 148 gr. mid-range WC is a better choice than 158 gr. RNL.

Notice above, Old Cop speaking!!!!!

I load the 158gr RNL for the range, fun round, leaves nice holes in paper but would not want it for self defense loads. Too many good one's out there. Not saying they wouldn't work but I would go with better options.

They may be old cops but they sure aren't "in the know". As others of said definitely not the RN design. The 158 gr RN had a terrible performance record. I worked at least a couple of shootings where that round was used and some where the 9mm RN was used. Then entrance and exit holes were difficult to locate. They just pushed thru the skin and then sealed up. Very very little damage inside.
A full wadcutter, even the slow moving target type, showed more damage than any RN wound I ever saw.
Save the RN stuff for play day at the range. Really tho it doesn't even make good target ammo for scoring targets as it doesn't cut a nice clean hold in the paper like a WC does.

38SPL HV said:

I heard from old cops in the know (Metro police) that the 38 Spl 158 gr RNL is adequate for SD use in J frame 442.

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Is barely adequate what you want in a life or death personal defense situation? What was good for the old cops in 1950 is now totally obsolete for street use today and I doubt you can find a current officer that is not carrying modern HP ammo in whatever weapon he/she carries. With the excellent self defense ammunition available to you today, why would you want to use anything else?

I find this info very interesting for people like me, who live in countries where hollow point or exotic loads (Glasers, etc.) are forbidden to civilians. Actually, CCW licenses are absolutely imposible to obtain, but that's another story. I own a 6"-barreled S&W model 14-2, registered with my sport-shooting handgun permit. It will be my home defense gun if the need arises. I can obtain 3 types of loads: 158 grain SJSP, 158 grain LRN and 148 target WC. I had always thought that the SJSP was my best choice and WC the worst one. What would be your choice in a medium frame revolver with this barrel length?

Traditionally the 158 RNL has been the worst choice for SD/ Duty use . Unfortunately the now ubiquitous 130 FMJ is probably even worse.

Given the parameters of standard pressure , there are the above mentioned Buffalo Bore Wadcutters , plus a handful of std pressure HP .

Of the latter, the W-W " Defend " 130gr jhp of their Train and Defend product line is widely available , and a fairly decent performance in this context .

Diego said:

I can obtain 3 types of loads: .158 grain SJSP, .158 grain LRN and .148 target WC. I had always thought that the SJSP was my better choice and WC the poorer one. What would be your choice in a medium frame revolver with this barrel length?

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Depending on the round, enough velocity may be realized from a 6" barrel to enable expansion with the SJSP. If that is indeed the case, that would be my choice. If not, I'd go with the WC.

The 158gr RN "Widow Maker" is not the best bullet to use........

one reason they made the FP SWC design, that did a little more damage and then
improved that with the HP +P loading.

If you think it is a good thing, use it...........

for a non-+P bullet design, I would prefer the 158 Lswc design or even a 148 wc lead target load, over the RN design.

I used this load in my issued Colt DS in a 1974 gunfight w/armed robbery suspects and would NOT trust it to stop anyone. This was our issued ammo then, we hit the suspects numerous times and they kept fighting for several minutes.

Meanwhile at Diego's inquiry ;

In hunting I had no expansion with jacketed SP in .357mag, from a 20 inch rifle , so I certainly wouldn't expect from a .38spl revolver .

Limited to those three choices , you wouldn't expect expansion from any of them, and the relative diameters of the flat portion of the bullet would be your primary deciding factor .

Thereby, the Wadcutter would be the comparitive best choice . To the extent the particular Soft Point has a flat nose , would make it prefered over the RNL .

Granted, there are better choices for longer barrels ie four inches and above, but many hollow points fail at snub velocities (denim and gelatin tests) unless you want to go +P, and even there, things are problematic. I also heard stories where the 200 gr old Super Police load was the preferred choice in snub noses. I understand that 158 gr RNLs also have a tendency to tumble in the snub nose revolver...I’ve seen tests to that degree.

One should feel adequately protected by a snub nose revolver loaded with the 158 gr RNL particularly when the shooter is skilled in placing their shots accurately. There is no substitute for good marksmanship.

I prefer a decent...

I don't know any 'bad' bullets for a .38, at least out of anything typical, but I prefer some sort of hollow point that does well in short barrels like Golden Sabers or Fed HSTs. Standard loading is fine with these.

38SPL HV said:

I heard from old cops in the know (Metro police) that the 38 Spl 158 gr RNL is adequate for SD use in J frame 442. I understand that they have adequate penetration, and are sighted for the J frame. I’ve shot many 158 gr RNL reloads at factory velocity and I’m very accurate with the load. I intend to purchase Remington’s 38 Spl 158 gr RNL cartridges (ones with nickel cases).

What is your opinions of the 158 gr RNL in the 442?

I do not want to use 38 Spl +P.

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When your life is on the line is "ADEQUATE" really what you want to be carrying?

All of the big ammunition companies offer premium self defensive ammunition.
Pick the brand you like best and buy a box or two of their standard pressure 38 Special Self Defense rounds.

Carry the cutting edge of Hollow Point technology designed to expand at snub nose velocities while still penetrating.

I am a big fan of the Speer Gold Dot and the newly redesigned NyClad, but any will serve you better than a 158 LRN

As stated elsewhere, it's pretty much the worst choice.

In Luckygunner's comprehensive tests, the Federal 130gr HST Micro was one of the best. It's a +P load.

The best standard pressure load was the Winchester 130gr Train and Defend.

Full wadcutters did fine but of course didn't expand. SWHPs didn't expand out of 2" barrels.

Even if you're not from the "wound cavity" school, a petaled JHP measuring .60+ across and penetrating 14" is simply going to be more incapacitating than a wadcutter measuring .36 across and penetrating the same distance.

Buy a high quality JHP that reliably expands from short barrels but doesn't "grenade" and fail to penetrate.

As an old metro cop who started in 73, I worked for a large So. Cal. Metro PD. Our issued round was the RN lead 38 spl. It had a dismal real world track record established over years and dozens of officer involved shootings. The rank and file officers had no faith in this round.
If you have to fight for your life with a J frame ( or any other firearm) you want the best performing bullet you can buy.
I left the metro PD in 78 and went to work for a highway patrol agency that had a more enlightened approach to arming it’s officers.
I have carried a J frame since 73, carried one today. Mine is loaded with a modern high performing JHP 135 gr short barrel gold dot loaded by Speer.
If I could not carry a modern JHP load, I would carry a 158 SWC or a hard cast WC.

38SPL HV said:

Granted, there are better choices for longer barrels ie four inches and above, but many hollow points fail at snub velocities (denim and gelatin tests) unless you want to go +P, and even there, things are problematic. I also heard stories where the 200 gr old Super Police load was the preferred choice in snub noses. I understand that 158 gr RNLs also have a tendency to tumble in the snub nose revolver...I’ve seen tests to that degree.

One should feel adequately protected by a snub nose revolver loaded with the 158 gr RNL particularly when the shooter is skilled in placing their shots accurately. There is no substitute for good marksmanship.

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San Antonio police used that 200 grain load. Officer Tom Ferguson was also a gun writer and I met him at an NRA Convention there. He told me that it was a miserable load, even from four-inch barrels and performed poorly when they had to shoot dogs.

If one can't or won't use Plus P, the .38 is a frail reed on which to lean.That ' why I suggested the full power wadcutter round.

Massad Ayoob (I think it was him) has published that SWC bullets don't seem to work a lot better, if any, than RNL ammo.
But many who shoot small game say they do fare better.

38SPL HV said:

Granted, there are better choices for longer barrels ie four inches and above, but many hollow points fail at snub velocities (denim and gelatin tests) unless you want to go +P, and even there, things are problematic. I also heard stories where the 200 gr old Super Police load was the preferred choice in snub noses. I understand that 158 gr RNLs also have a tendency to tumble in the snub nose revolver...I’ve seen tests to that degree.

One should feel adequately protected by a snub nose revolver loaded with the 158 gr RNL particularly when the shooter is skilled in placing their shots accurately. There is no substitute for good marksmanship.

Click to expand...

San Antonio police used that 200 grain load. Officer Tom Ferguson was also a gun writer and I met him at an NRA Convention there. He told me that it was a miserable load, even from four-inch barrels and performed poorly when they had to shoot dogs.

If one can't or won't use Plus P, the .38 is a frail reed on which to lean.That 's why I suggested the full power wadcutter round.

Massad Ayoob (I think it was him) has published that SWC bullets don't seem to work a lot better, if any, than RNL ammo.
But many who shoot small game say they do fare better.

Of course, it's a far cry from shooting rabbits or grouse to shooting men or bears. Still, I'd rather have a hard cast SWC at good velocity over a RNL if I had to head shoot a big cat or a bear.

I have Marshall & Sanow's book on handgun stopping power and feel it's realistic in the results described, which in some tables came from real shootings, not from gelatin tests.

The man I know who has shot more men with handguns than anyone else I know of says that well placed 9mm ball ammo fares better than most predict. This was confirmed by the late David W. Arnold. Before migrating from South Africa to the USA, David had been a high police official in Rhodesia. He had access to after action reports and said that 9mm usually worked pretty well on terrorists. But I think he saw more hits from SMG's than from the Walther P-38's his men carried. He wore a P-38 because it was issued. In private life, he preferred the Colt .45 auto and was a member of the Rhodesian international action shooting team. David was a wise man and his preference for the .45 speaks volumes.

Ayoob's tests on slaughterhouse pigs showed good results with the old FBI load of a Plus P LSWCHP. That was far superior to the .380 in those trials. But the OP wants to avoid Plus P ammo. And in his Airweight gun, that's probably wise.