38 Spl 158 gr RNL adequate for S&W 442

[murphydog]

If you are at home in the middle of the night and all you have is your 442 and 158 gr RNL it would be better than some defensive options. But you asked for opinions as to if this would be "adequate" and several with real-world experience replied in the negative.

'If' you practice with it regularly; can put 3-5 shots rapidly on vital targets with either or both hands; are proficient in reloading it quickly under stress (you may have more than one opponent)...you may still be out of luck. Better performing ammo will give you an extra margin of effectiveness - witness the NYPD mandating the change to the 135 gr Speer Gold Dot back in the day of the model 64 and .38 backup guns. They sure didn't do that for financial reasons or because they were easier to shoot. This load had a proven record when used on duty.

Good luck in your decisions.

 

[Texas Star]

Old Chief-

Thanks for relating that gunfight. Your post here carries great weight, being from personal experience.

Diego-

Congratulations on your superb English! You probably know that we have members from Mexico and from Argentina who have to post in Spanish. I can usually understand them and sometimes, someone posts a Google translation. But it's easier to read your fine English. I do enjoy the posts in Spanish, which often convey important information.

 

[ShivasIrons]

Granted, there are better choices for longer barrels ie four inches and above, but many hollow points fail at snub velocities (denim and gelatin tests) unless you want to go +P, and even there, things are problematic. I also heard stories where the 200 gr old Super Police load was the preferred choice in snub noses. I understand that 158 gr RNLs also have a tendency to tumble in the snub nose revolver...I've seen tests to that degree.

One should feel adequately protected by a snub nose revolver loaded with the 158 gr RNL particularly when the shooter is skilled in placing their shots accurately. There is no substitute for good marksmanship.

1) You need to define adequate.

2) I typically use a hollow point in my 38 Snubs. If it expands, it is a bonus. If it does not, I still have the equivalent of 158gr RNL.

3) I too believe accuracy is final. I carry 158 RNL in a couple old snubs I have. It is closely regulated to the sites and that is important to me. I don't lose any sleep over it.

4) Rule number 1 to winning a gunfight is having a gun. If you KNEW you were going to have a gunfight tomorrow would anyone choose a 38 snub?? The 38 Snub is what is with me every day. I like it, easy to carry and I am most likely to have it with me when trouble goes down.

5) Kid Tested and Mother Approved! A 38 snub with any ammo beats a sharp stick 10 out of 10 times!

 

[ContinentalOp]

My first choice in a snub-nosed .38 is the Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P. Good performance both in actual shootings and gel tests. It's what I currently keep in my 642-1.

My second choice is some form of the FBI load, with my preferred version being the Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure loading (same velocity as other makers' +P loadings).

One caveat with Buffalo Bore ammo. If you're concern regarding +P is felt recoil, you might want to skip Buffalo Bore. In my experience, even though they claim "standard pressure," their velocities are the same as +P, which means they have the same recoil as +P loads. As a general rule, I treat Buffalo Bore's "standard pressure" loadings as though they were +P.

For standard pressure loads, my first choice is the 125gr Federal Nyclad HP, but, unfortunately, they've been discontinued for some time now. I'm hoarding the couple of boxes I have left. Actual street performance seemed to be better than what gel results would suggest.

After that, I would try out the Winchester Defend 130gr JHP. While I'm not aware of any actual shootings, gel results look promising.

Finally, I'd go with the midrange WC, particularly if you can find a hardcast version. From what I've researched, it's street performance seemed a bit mixed, generally adequate (actually, not a lot of info is available, so I could be wrong either way), and in gel will typically penetrate about 14-15", so at least there's adequate penetration while minimizing the risk for overpenetration. It's what I would carry if I were limited to non-HP bullets.

I haven't seen gel tests for the Buffalo Bore full-power WC loads, but I would be concerned about overpenetration. I'm not saying I wouldn't use it, but, for me, personally, I would be hesitant to carry it until I learned more. If someone happens to have a link to a gel test for this load, I'd appreciate it if you could share it.

From what I've seen, .38 Special does seem like a round that benefits from +P for defensive purposes, so I would suggest reconsidering your standard pressure requirement if possible.

Having said all that, things like reliability and shootability are more important than terminal ballistics (and awareness/avoidance skills are even more important than either of those), so it's better to carry a round that's reliable and you can shoot well than the best HP load you can't hit the broad side of a barn with. But if you can shoot either type of round well enough, I'd recommend going with the best performing round you can get.

Just my opinion.

 

[38SPL HV]

Thank you everyone for your inputs and informative experiences.

I'll share with you an experience I had in NYC while in college during the late 1970s. I asked a NYC MTA patrolman on a midtown subway platform which type of 38 Spl cartridges they carried...he gave me a look of disgust, rightfully so in retrospect, and answered "the kind which can kill." He had 38 Spl 158 gr rnl rounds in his belt cartridge loops...

The NYPD had by that time transitioned to 158 gr SWCs which in actuality had similar performance to round nose versions - not much gained if anything.

I recall reading somewhere that NYPD gunfights with 38 Specials usual took 2-4 rounds to stop the threat. Now, with higher capacity firearms I understand the amount is much higher.

The 38 Special even in their std velocity loadings are still an effective round and a powerful one at that.

 

[38SPL HV]

...had and still have the highest respect for the fine men and women in blue both NYPD and MTA. They protected us during some of the most turbulent times in NYC. I get very nostalgic thinking of these fine officers patrolling with their revolvers and billy clubs...how quickly time goes.

 

[shouldazagged]

38SPL HV, +P ammunition is much more comfortable and controllable to shoot from an all-steel J-frame than from an Airweight like the 442. The additional few ounces of weight aren't excessive or burdensome, even for pocket carry, though many disagree and want guns weighing about as much as a Milky Way bar.

 

[.455_Hunter]

...he gave me a look of disgust, rightfully so in retrospect...

Why?

To me, it sounds like he was just being an arrogant ***, full of the "guns are for me, and not for thee" pompitude.

I wouldn't lose sleep over carrying 158 gr LRN in my snub.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The .38 Special 200 grain , "Flying Ashtray" ,was a huge bullet for this size revolver..............


However it was too slow to have any useful energy's to penetrate car doors
or their windshields, for LE use.

Some say BIG is better but you also need some FPS to get energy's
that will make the bullet work correctly.

Like a 200 gr bullet out of a 30-06 Rifle !!

 

[jupiter1]

I find it interesting that .38 caliber was good enough through the Civil War (51 Navy Colt), Spanish American War etc. It wasn't util the Philippine insurrection that complaints about effectiveness were made. The more powerful.38 Special was developed as a solution. Most police departments in the US adopted the .38 Special and not much was heard about lack of effectiveness until bandits started using automobiles and the complaints were mainly about lack of penetration of car bodies. Metal capped bullets, 38-44 loads, pointed metal penetrating bullets addressed that concern. The 158 gr RNL was standard through the 60s into the seventies when the drug epidemic started. Cops began to encounter drugged up assailants who could absorb a lot of lead before collapsing. In those cases, a handgun, in any caliber, would have problems. I don't have a problem with the 158 gr RNL as a defensive round.

 

[rwsmith]

If I weren't allowed anything else.....

I find this info very interesting for people like me, who live in countries where hollow point or exotic loads (Glasers, etc.) are forbidden to civilians. Actually, CCW licenses are absolutely imposible to obtain, but that's another story. I own a 6"-barreled S&W model 14-2, registered with my sport-shooting handgun permit. It will be my home defense gun if the need arises. I can obtain 3 types of loads: 158 grain SJSP, 158 grain LRN and 148 target WC. I had always thought that the SJSP was my best choice and WC the worst one. What would be your choice in a medium frame revolver with this barrel length?

If you are limited in that way, then sure the RN would be a good choice. If that were limited, I guess I'd throw bricks.

 

[rwsmith]

I had to put Hogues...

38SPL HV, +P ammunition is much more comfortable and controllable to shoot from an all-steel J-frame than from an Airweight like the 442. The additional few ounces of weight aren't excessive or burdensome, even for pocket carry, though many disagree and want guns weighing about as much as a Milky Way bar.

I had to put Hogues on my mod 38. Firing more than a few stiff rounds ain't fun at all. My model 36 is MUCH more comfortable to shoot.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't know why......

The .38 Special 200 grain , "Flying Ashtray" ,was a huge bullet for this size revolver..............


However it was too slow to have any useful energy's to penetrate car doors
or their windshields, for LE use.

Some say BIG is better but you also need some FPS to get energy's
that will make the bullet work correctly.

Like a 200 gr bullet out of a 30-06 Rifle !!

Agreed. Expansion is good. If it's too slow too expand then to me it's not the right choice.

Now a 'flying ashtray of about 148 to 158 grains out of the right allow sounds good to me.

 

[rwsmith]

With todays...

I find it interesting that .38 caliber was good enough through the Civil War (51 Navy Colt), Spanish American War etc. It wasn't util the Philippine insurrection that complaints about effectiveness were made. The more powerful.38 Special was developed as a solution. Most police departments in the US adopted the .38 Special and not much was heard about lack of effectiveness until bandits started using automobiles and the complaints were mainly about lack of penetration of car bodies. Metal capped bullets, 38-44 loads, pointed metal penetrating bullets addressed that concern. The 158 gr RNL was standard through the 60s into the seventies when the drug epidemic started. Cops began to encounter drugged up assailants who could absorb a lot of lead before collapsing. In those cases, a handgun, in any caliber, would have problems. I don't have a problem with the 158 gr RNL as a defensive round.

....Cracked up, Bath Salted and Meth Head criminals I want something powerful enough and with planty of rounds.

 

[Univibe]

Go read the autopsy report on Lee Harvey Oswald. You will see how devastating a 158 grain RNL can be.

It's all placement and penetration.

 

[Diego]

Old Chief-

Thanks for relating that gunfight. Your post here carries great weight, being from personal experience.

Diego-

Congratulations on your superb English! You probably know that we have members from Mexico and from Argentina who have to post in Spanish. I can usually understand them and sometimes, someone posts a Google translation. But it's easier to read your fine English. I do enjoy the posts in Spanish, which often convey important information.

Thank you!!

 

[OFT II]

Go read the autopsy report on Lee Harvey Oswald. You will see how devastating a 158 grain RNL can be.

It's all placement and penetration.

I wouldn't be surprised if muzzle blast didn't have a lot to do with the damage done to LHO.

 

[rockquarry]

As is common with these threads, many like to obsess over fine details, one-time incidents, gelatin blobs, FBI, and now Lee Harvey Oswald. All of this becomes very meaningless if one can't regularly hit the target, and not just at a few yards.

There may be no reliable figures, but it's quite likely many criminals for many decades met their demise with 158 grain round nose .38 Special loads. That's not an endorsement. Shoot what works best for you in your gun. The ability to make consistent hits is far more important than "what if" and other insignificant factors, but it requires actual shooting practice.

 

[The_Truth]

I'll keep it simple. Only use 158gr lead semi wad cutter hollow cavities, preferably +p, in your 38s. Throw everything else away.

 

[Borderboss]

As is common with these threads, many like to obsess over fine details, one-time incidents, gelatin blobs, FBI, and now Lee Harvey Oswald. All of this becomes very meaningless if one can't regularly hit the target, and not just at a few yards.

There may be no reliable figures, but it's quite likely many criminals for many decades met their demise with 158 grain round nose .38 Special loads. That's not an endorsement. Shoot what works best for you in your gun. The ability to make consistent hits is far more important than "what if" and other insignificant factors, but it requires actual shooting practice.

Perfect comment. If you put some holes in the right body parts, the result you want will take place. Missing with a +P doesn't make that bullet effective.