Police Issued .38 Round Nose? When?

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JayFramer

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We’ve all heard about the infamous “Widow Maker”: the .38 special 158 grain round nose lead:

A1-C52956-9-FA5-42-BB-B211-19200-C2-CC51-E.jpg


This is an OLD load, and was considered an anemic stopper. Despite this, it was the standard .38 special service load for decades. But when did it stop being used?

We know that revolvers really fell out of favor in the U.S. Law Enforcement arena by the 1990s. Did the RNL load still get issued by anyone up till then?

Just wondering how long the “Widow Maker” lead round nose 158 grain .38 stuck around for duty use. I’m thinking of picking some up for display with my Model 64 with police gear, but am unsure if anyone was still using that ammo when the Model 64 heavy barrel was around.

Thoughts?

-Jay
 
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The problem with the LRN ammo wasn't an anemic load, it was the bullet profile itself. I read the TH bullet instead of filling through internal organs would sometimes slide by them because of the round nose in turn not doing critical damage. Makes sense to me and I can see why the sharp shoulder of a SWC bullet would do more damage.
 
Obviously there are many different police departments in the US that
used to use revolvers that no longer do so. The switch to semi autos was
a process that happened over a period of time, not an all at once event.
It would be impossible to pinpoint exactly when the .38 spl RN stopped
being used. I'd bet that it is still being used somewhere by somebody.
Prison guards maybe or some one stoplight towns.
 
Just a guess on my part, but I think at least into the 70s, maybe early 80s. IIRC, the FBI load came on the scene in the early 70s. I believe the 70s was also when officer survival started becoming a serious topic in the aftermath of the Newhall Incident, so I could see some departments switching to more effective ammo because of that.

Again, just a guess.

FWIW, in the mid-to-late 90s I worked as an armed guard for two different companies. One issued the .357 Magnum 686 but we were required to load them with the .38 Special 158gr LRN. I can't remember exactly what the other company issued, but I know it was either the 158gr LRN or SWC, also in .38 Special, in a Model 10. However, the second company let me carry the FBI load I purchased myself (Winchester brand, IIRC).
 
When I started in '71 that was standard for our department BUT, they advised everyone to buy their own .357 and their own ammo such as 125gr HP. By the mid '70's the department sprung for S&W 125gr HP .357 magnums. Had a blue white fireball about 2' in diameter, an absolutely horrible round for guys that worked nights.
 
In 1966 Lee Jurras at SuperVel in Shelbyville, Indiana was credited with coming up with jacketed hollow point high velocity ammunition. A lighter high velocity round that really made the round nose obsolete, although it was still carried by many departments. SuperVel was a “Law Enforcement Only” round and I carried it in the 70’s, as did my Highway Patrolman father. When Dad died I found an original box with 32 rounds in it. The other 18 would be 6 in the Model 10, and 12 in the dump box on his Sam Browne belt.

SuperVel went out of business but has been resurrected by Cameron Hopkins in Las Vegas. He makes a great product. I use a round he calls Hush Puppy in 9mm that was developed for Navy SEALs and shot through suppressed Model 39s. As well as other products. Hope this helps answer OP’s question.
 
I remember being issued W-W .38 Special High Velocity Lubaloy 158-grain round-nose ammo in about 1973. Come to think of it, that was the only time I was ever issued ammunition (other than while in the Army). The rest of the time we bought our own ammo. Must have been something going on at that time to get the bean counters to purchase a bunch of ammo to hand out to the troops.

Nine or ten years later I worked for a state agency and just added ammunition to my monthly expense reports, complete with receipts, and was reimbursed about 6 weeks later for my out of pocket expenses. Being responsible for covering 38 of the state's 63 counties, I was on the road at least 3 days every week, so motels, gas, and meals were a lot more expensive than an occasional box of ammo for range qualifications.

Long time ago. I expect the boys and girls have state-issued credit cards now. There were times when my out of pocket expenses exceeded my monthly salary, back in the day.
 
JayFramer said:
This is an OLD load, and was considered an anemic stopper. Despite this, it was the standard .38 special service load for decades. But when did it stop being used?
Click to expand...

I believe the stopping anecdotes coincided with the start of the drug epidemic. The .38 Long Colt was similarly castigated when used against drugged, fanatical Moro warriors. Prior to those events,.38 caliber lead bullets were effectively employed all the way back to the .36 Navy Colt days so I am sceptical about the failure stories. There was probably no handgun round that would have stopped anyone in those cases unless CNS or other vital structure was struck. My department switched from R-P RNL to W-W HV SWC in 1972.

In our case, the only criticism of 158 gr RNL I remember was related to penetration of auto sheet metal. Otherwise it worked OK.
 
Local law enforcement usually followed the FBI's lead, whether it was right, wrong, questionable, or indifferent. Only a guess, but I suspect not much lead round nose .38 Special ammo was issued after the mid-70s.

Regardless, this "inferior" ammunition was used for for many, many years. Though quite a few sedentary self-anointed experts have opinions as to its effectiveness, it may have been used to save more than a few police officers while simultaneously cutting short the lives of numerous bad guys. However, I doubt there are accurate numbers going back the last eight or ten decades to document this.
 
I first hired on in 1967 and even then we used the .357 mag's. At various times throughout my career I used many auto's but mostly carried a revolver until my retirement in 1998. The auto's were the 1911, Browning HP, Walther P-38, S&W 39 and finally a Glock (which I hated) while working a retirement job for the U.S. Marshals.
 
I joined the PD in 1969 and we were issued the 158 gr. RN until sometime in the mid 70s when we changed over to JHP rounds.
 
Univibe said:
Nothing wrong with 158 grains going 750 fps. Put it in the right spot, and it's as effective as anything out there.
Click to expand...

Bullhockey!

It was and still is a horrible choice for self-defense. Don’t confuse being lethal with stopping power. It is of little comfort to your family when your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

In the 1970’s hollow point ammunition was a political hot potato in many cities across the nation. Race relations were bad and complaints of police brutality was common. So non-gun Police Administrators refused to change ammunition while officers died on the streets. As old Administrators retired new younger Officers took their place and armed the troops with better ammunition.
 
BSA1 said:
It was and still is a horrible choice for self-defense. Don’t confuse being lethal with stopping power. It is of little comfort to your family when your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.
Click to expand...

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?
 
I had a good friend that was the Chief of Police in Laramie until the mid-‘80’s and he was still carrying the RNL load when he retired. I think his officers were allowed to carry their own, though, and I doubt many of them carried that load by then.
 
I lived in NYC for slightly over 50 years. During that time I remember quite well their S&W model 10's, Jay Pee bucket holsters and the 158grain lead round nosed bullet. That Jay Pee bucket holster was a miserable excuse for a holster. Basically just a leather bucket to hold the revolver. Back then it wasn't uncommon to read the paper to find out that during an arrest a criminal would snatch the revolver out of the holster and shoot the arresting officer. And I saw many police officers with the holster exposed to the elements so rain,snow and whatever would easily enter the holster. There was no top strap on these holsters. Frank
 
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