Police Issued .38 Round Nose? When?

[robertrwalsh]

When I went to work for the Cal DOC back in 1980 we were still qualifying with WC ammo and the 158 RNL was the duty round. If I recall correctly that changed around 1982-3 more or less.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I remember my Dad (retired in 77) had some of the "new" +P (or +P+) .38 HP special "Law Enforcement Only" ammo in his "Burb of the Burgh" for a few years before I graduated from High School in 1971..... Actually came across a couple of boxes as I was cleaning out his stock at the cabin this summer....

remember keep it cool and dry !


IIRC the bullets are a semi-jacked 125gr hollow point......

Three different brands..... 50rd white box,two in 24/25 round(?) red and white and Green and white boxes....... don't recall the "Brands" but don't think they were one of the "Big Name Brands"

My Dad was a avid shooter; on the Dept's Pistol Team and a reloader.........don't know if the whole Dept was issued these new rounds but he did have them in his .357 Colt New Service and 4"M&P (1946)

 

[JackM]

I lived in NYC for slightly over 50 years. During that time I remember quite well their S&W model 10's, Jay Pee bucket holsters and the 158grain lead round nosed bullet. That Jay Pee bucket holster was a miserable excuse for a holster. Basically just a leather bucket to hold the revolver. Back then it wasn't uncommon to read the paper to find out that during an arrest a criminal would snatch the revolver out of the holster and shoot the arresting officer. And I saw many police officers with the holster exposed to the elements so rain,snow and whatever would easily enter the holster. There was no top strap on these holsters. Frank

In theory, these holsters were supposed to retain the weapon by means of a leather strip sewn inside to catch the rear of the cylinder. If I remember correctly, you would twist the gun outward and then draw. Not a good system. The first holster I was issued was an Audley, a cross-draw. It had no retaining strap either. Instead, it was equipped with a spring-loaded tab that snapped into the trigger guard. To draw the weapon you had to insert your finger into the guard, push the button, and then draw. Yeah, that was really great. Looked good a parades, though.

 

[crazyphil]

Boise PD duty revolver was the model 10 with 4" barrel. Plain cloths
cops carried the model 10 with 2" barrel. By 1973 BPD had tried Super
Vel and abandoned it in favor of 140-Gr. Speer Soft Nose Hollow Point.
They loaded their own practice ammo. 146-Gr. Wadcutters.
BTW duty holster was the Jordan Border Patrol, plain or basketweave black.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I think a lot of the knock on the 158 RNL is propaganda put out by the ammunition companies in order to sell us more expensive hollowpoint ammunition. They are continually getting us to jump through hoops. Look what is happening with the 40/9mm. All of a sudden the 40 is not required and you've just got to buy the super-duper 9mm ammuntion. It's happening with the guns too. You can't get much selling a 40 today. I bet in a few years the situation will reverse. So it goes.

 

[Old cop]

I started my career in 1968 and was forced to use my duty weapon w/this old load twice. The first time it dropped the suspect before he could get off a shot and the second time in '74 several rounds only slowed the bad guy down a bit. My agency switched to the FBI hollow point +P in 1974 following my second officer involved shooting where the old RN round failed. I remember the Washington Post running a story claiming the local police were demanding "dum-dum" rounds claiming they were not humane. The old TV show Adam 12 even had an episode about how terrible hollow point rounds were.

 

[ContinentalOp]

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

My guess? For the most part it was probably availability. There likely wasn't any ammo designed specifically for self-defense at the time, so they just used what they could get with the least cost. I would hazard a guess that there likely weren't many people who knew or understood terminal ballistics. If shooting a bad guy didn't immediately stop him, it was probably chalked up to the bad guy being tough.

Add in institutional momentum, where organizations can be slow to change and adapt, and you get why some agencies still used LRN even after more effective ammo became available.

 

[BB57]

I think a lot of the knock on the 158 RNL is propaganda put out by the ammunition companies in order to sell us more expensive hollowpoint ammunition. They are continually getting us to jump through hoops. Look what is happening with the 40/9mm. All of a sudden the 40 is not required and you've just got to buy the super-duper 9mm ammuntion. It's happening with the guns too. You can't get much selling a 40 today. I bet in a few years the situation will reverse. So it goes.

Yes and no.

First the "no":

The standard pressure .38 Special 158 gr RN load has been considered questionable for self defense for a long time. General Julian Hatcher developed a rating for stopping power in the 1930s.

The Formula was:

RSP = MB * A * F *1000

where

RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index
MB = Momentum of the bullet in pound feet - (WB/450240) * V
A = Area of the bullet in square inches
F = Form factor (derived from the list below)

Form Factor:
Fully Jacketed Round Nose = 0.9
Lead Round Nose = 1.0
Lead Flat Point (small meplat) = 1.05
Lead flat point (large meplat) = 1.1
Lead Semi-wadcutter (Kieth types) and hollow points = 1.25

Hatcher didn't consider hollow points separately at the time as they didn't expand well at pistol velocities in the 1930s, so they were counted in with the Kieth type semi wad cutters, but a value of 1.35 has been assigned since then.

The classic .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ RN at 830 fps scored a hatcher rating of 62.

The .357 Magnum with a 158 gr LSWC at 1,450 fps out of 4" revolver will score 64.

A .357 Magnum with a 125 gr hollow point at 1300 fps in a 2.5" revolver scores 49.

The .38+ P with a 158 gr LSWCHP at 890 fps out of a 4" revolver scores 39 (using the old 1.25 value) or 43 (using the newer 1.35 value).

The original military 9mm LUger with a 124 gr FMJ RN at 1200 fps scores a 29.

In contrast, the standard pressure .38 Special with a 158 gr LRN at 755 fps will produce a Hatcher rating of just 26.

That's only a single point higher than the Army issue .38 Colt with a 148 gr bullet at 750 fps (a Hatcher rating of 25), the load that was considered ineffective in the Philippines.

In terms of scaling, a round had to score a 25 to be considered minimally effective, and a score of 50 or higher was considered to be very desirable.

The .38 Special with a 158 gr LSWC at the same 755 fps increases the score to a more respectable 33.

The .38 special target load with a 148 gr wad cutter at 710 fps scores a 29. In short, it's hard to do worse than the 158 gr .38 LRN on the Hatcher with a .38 Special

Hatcher based his results on testing conducted with live cattle, live goats, and human cadavers, something that would be frowned upon today.

My point here isn't to argue the validity of the Hatcher rating for stopping power purposes but rather to underscore the point that even in the 1930s, the 158 gr LRN load was considered to be pretty anemic, and that the using a LSWC, and/or a larger diameter bullet, and/or more velocity were all considered prudent at the time.

----

Next the "yes":

I agree with you that there is way too much advertising and internet expert pressure to use a super super high performance bullet. And it's even less relevant for some cartridges than others.

The 9mm has become a very effective self defense cartridge due to the development of hollow points that expand reliably. However, the difference between a 124 gr Hornady XTP at 1110 fps that expands to about 1.5x its original diameter and one of the higher end premium bullets that expands to about 1.65x its original diameter (but may penetrate less) isn't worth mentioning.

Bullet placement matters, so it makes sense to buy a middle of the round that still expands reliably, but that you can afford to shoot twice as often.

In the .357 Magnum, it's difficult to find a JHP or JSP load that doesn't perform acceptably well.

 

[Drm50]

IN 50s and 60s most small town PDs were using 38sp RN and some still using 32 S&W longs. Late 60s saw them go to 357s and middle 80s the trend to autos. Last batch of revolvers I sold to a PD were 686s and first batch of autos were S&W 39s.some of the unencorported villages with town marshal or constibles still using six shooters.

 

[Skeet 028]

We had an attempted Aircraft hijacking in the 80s and the police at the airport were still using 38 RN ammo. One of the officers attempted to shoot a tire out on the aircraft with his service revolver(M-19) and the bullet bounced off the tire. Another officer shot the same tire with a 357(don't know the bullet) and the tire went down in a hurry. During the gun battle another airport cop shot at the BG through the loading door window and the bullet also failed to penetrate. The Airport cops very soon after went to 357 rounds

 

[Buford57]

Finance had a lot to do with it. My department issued 125 Gr. Speer JSP until S&W offered a great deal on 125 JRN one year. It was greeted with all the enthusiasm given to fecal matter in the punch bowl, but we were stuck for the year. That September an officer shot a knife-wielding burglar at about 15 feet. The bullet shed its jacket on the perp's down vest, nicked a lung and ended its career as an unexpanded slug in the other side of the vest. The suspect then outran the officer. He still had enough energy to charge me 5 or 6 blocks away 10 minutes later, but not enough to get to my "line in the sand".

The chief's public statement was that the ammo "performed admirably" but a month or so later we were issued Federal +P 110 gr HPs.

 

[federali]

In the 1960s and 1970s, my agency qualified at the large NYPD outdoor range at Rodmans Neck, in the Bronx. I believe it was around the 1970s that NYPD went to the 158 grain semi-wadcutter, dropping the round nose bullet. I recall NYPD either issuing or selling the new ammo in 20 round boxes.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

I remember an article in the 1960s advocating the 200 grain lead semi-flat nose, fired from a six inch 38 special police load.
Geoff
Who has been around awhile.

 

[WR Moore]

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

Because for 40 or 50 years (and more) it was about all that was factory available. Remember the round originated in 1899. Different bullet shapes didn't become available in factory ammo until the late 1960's/early 1970's.

One minor exception was metal piercing ammo. That generally had either a metal capped RN or a cone shaped bullet. In the late '60's Winchester loaded the cone shhaped bullet in .357 and a Lubaloy semi-wadcutter (which left gobs of itself in the rifling). The other was target wadcutter loads.

The 200 grain bullet was interesting and had potential. BUT, it was downloaded to keep the same point of impact as the 158 gr load with fixed sight service revolvers. It also might be that given the powders of the day, that was all that was possible (pre +P) to deliver. More robust loads hit way high.

 

[Skeet 028]

One minor exception was metal piercing ammo. That generally had either a metal capped RN or a cone shaped bullet. In the late '60's Winchester loaded the cone shhaped bullet in .357 and a Lubaloy semi-wadcutter (which left gobs of itself in the rifling). The other was target wadcutter loads.

I have a few of the SP rounds they made back then and at least 2 boxes of that Lubaloy junk. You are right...it left 1/4 of the bullet plating the bore...or so it seemed. Didn't they also make some 44 mag ammo plated the same??

 

[pharman]

200 grain "Police Special"

I have in my ammo collection two boxes of 38 Special made by Western in 200 grain Lubaloy...boxes are marked "Police Special"...seems like they would do the job...

 

[Biggfoot44]

The 158gr +P LHP was adopted by the FBI in 1972 .The 110 +P+ JHP was adopted by US Treasury in 1973 .

SuperVel predated these by a cpl years . From early '70s on , all the major, and some regional Ammo mfgs were chasing the LE Duty/ Civilian SD market hard, and had a plethora of JHP and JSP offerings .

Starting then , improved ammo became the hot thing , with relatively quickly spreading . ( I personally saw W-W 158 LHP on LE duty belts in '74 .)

It shook out that 158 +P LHP became most wide spread , followed by 110 +P+ jhp , with various 110gr and 125gr jhp , usually , but not always +P .

For the OP's display purposes - By the late '70s the tipping point had passed . Most LE Agencies were using some form of HP as the norm , and any exceptions stood out as being out of step . LAPD probably the last large holdout with RNL into the early '90s, with NYPD having switched to 158 SWC ( not HP) .

***************************

Why ? ( Why RNL , why so long , etc )

1. It was a step up from .32 S&W Long/ .32 Colt New Police , and .38 S&W / Colt New Police . Also , in the early 1900s , many PD that previously not had standardized guns/ ammo , joined the .38spl bandwagon ( and for 70yrs , the 158 RNL was THE Police Service Load , and was presumed , unless otherwise refered to as Wadcutters or Target Ammo .

The "good things" about std .38spl , is being in a sweet spot of being somewhat controllable by most Ofc with modest initial training, and haphazard requalifications . Combined with what was initially considered " reasonably adequate " power . It wasn't until the mid 1930's that the FBI began the spread of somewhat standardized firearms course of fire ( now known as PPC ) .

But yes , plenty of people knew better. It was an earlier era . Lots of PD had Ofc provide their own firearms , and gun savvy Ofc would use .38-44, .44, .45, .357 .

 

[DWalt]

Both .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special loads were once available with 200 grain LRN bullets (maybe they still are, I didn't check), usually labeled by Western and Winchester as "Super Police." The idea was that the longer bullet stabilized poorly and would yaw when passing through body tissue, causing more extensive internal damage. There is a tendency to confuse the 200 grain .38 Special "Super Police" loads with the .38-44 high speed .38 Special loads, but they are entirely different cartridges.

One of the reasons that the British military adopted the pre-WWII .380 Mark I revolver load with a 200 grain LRN bullet (sometimes incorrectly called the .38-200) was that they believed it had more "stopping power" than a lighter bullet for the reason previously mentioned. The British .380 Mark I military load was pretty much identical to the US .38 S&W Super Police load, but was dropped early in WWII as it was not compliant with the Hague Convention protocols. It was replaced in British service by the .380 Mark II cartridge which used a 178 grain FMJ bullet. At least by reputation, it was somewhat less effective in combat than the older Mark I cartridge.

 

[dpsmousegunner]

I started in 1972 with the Arizona Department of Public Safety, Highway Patrol. Our issued weapon was a Model 15 and duty ammunition was 110 grain Super Vel, although we used 148 grain wadcutters for qualifications. I remember feeling fortunate that we had hollow point ammunition as most other agencies were carrying 158 grain RN as a duty round.

 

[Frank46]

Actually and this my best guess is the transition from the old 38 special with the old 158 grain round nosed lead bullet. Was caused by more criminals armed with 9mm. Which had more penetrating power and at that point in time the powers that be finally decided to go to a more powerful cartridge. The original ballistics back then for the 357 magnum were pretty impressive compared to the old 38 special. When I irst moved down to Louisiana back in the beginning of 1996 I met a young sherifs deputy.. Who at the time was carrying an old model 10 with the old pencil barrel. He had to buy his own gear and I think ammo. heck, NYC had changed over way before that. And I'd bet there were other parishes here in Louisiana that were still arming their deputies with revolvers loaded with the old 158 load. Think a few parishes switched to Beretta 92 series of pistols in 9mm. Then came the Glocks in 40 S&W and don't know what they are carrying now. We had Burns Guards on our property and one of the old sergents had an ancient S&W model unknown revolver with a 6" barrel. Frank