Police Issued .38 Round Nose? When?

JayFramer

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We've all heard about the infamous "Widow Maker": the .38 special 158 grain round nose lead:

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This is an OLD load, and was considered an anemic stopper. Despite this, it was the standard .38 special service load for decades. But when did it stop being used?

We know that revolvers really fell out of favor in the U.S. Law Enforcement arena by the 1990s. Did the RNL load still get issued by anyone up till then?

Just wondering how long the "Widow Maker" lead round nose 158 grain .38 stuck around for duty use. I'm thinking of picking some up for display with my Model 64 with police gear, but am unsure if anyone was still using that ammo when the Model 64 heavy barrel was around.

Thoughts?

-Jay
 
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The problem with the LRN ammo wasn't an anemic load, it was the bullet profile itself. I read the TH bullet instead of filling through internal organs would sometimes slide by them because of the round nose in turn not doing critical damage. Makes sense to me and I can see why the sharp shoulder of a SWC bullet would do more damage.
 
Obviously there are many different police departments in the US that
used to use revolvers that no longer do so. The switch to semi autos was
a process that happened over a period of time, not an all at once event.
It would be impossible to pinpoint exactly when the .38 spl RN stopped
being used. I'd bet that it is still being used somewhere by somebody.
Prison guards maybe or some one stoplight towns.
 
Just a guess on my part, but I think at least into the 70s, maybe early 80s. IIRC, the FBI load came on the scene in the early 70s. I believe the 70s was also when officer survival started becoming a serious topic in the aftermath of the Newhall Incident, so I could see some departments switching to more effective ammo because of that.

Again, just a guess.

FWIW, in the mid-to-late 90s I worked as an armed guard for two different companies. One issued the .357 Magnum 686 but we were required to load them with the .38 Special 158gr LRN. I can't remember exactly what the other company issued, but I know it was either the 158gr LRN or SWC, also in .38 Special, in a Model 10. However, the second company let me carry the FBI load I purchased myself (Winchester brand, IIRC).
 
When I started in '71 that was standard for our department BUT, they advised everyone to buy their own .357 and their own ammo such as 125gr HP. By the mid '70's the department sprung for S&W 125gr HP .357 magnums. Had a blue white fireball about 2' in diameter, an absolutely horrible round for guys that worked nights.
 
In 1966 Lee Jurras at SuperVel in Shelbyville, Indiana was credited with coming up with jacketed hollow point high velocity ammunition. A lighter high velocity round that really made the round nose obsolete, although it was still carried by many departments. SuperVel was a "Law Enforcement Only" round and I carried it in the 70's, as did my Highway Patrolman father. When Dad died I found an original box with 32 rounds in it. The other 18 would be 6 in the Model 10, and 12 in the dump box on his Sam Browne belt.

SuperVel went out of business but has been resurrected by Cameron Hopkins in Las Vegas. He makes a great product. I use a round he calls Hush Puppy in 9mm that was developed for Navy SEALs and shot through suppressed Model 39s. As well as other products. Hope this helps answer OP's question.
 
I remember being issued W-W .38 Special High Velocity Lubaloy 158-grain round-nose ammo in about 1973. Come to think of it, that was the only time I was ever issued ammunition (other than while in the Army). The rest of the time we bought our own ammo. Must have been something going on at that time to get the bean counters to purchase a bunch of ammo to hand out to the troops.

Nine or ten years later I worked for a state agency and just added ammunition to my monthly expense reports, complete with receipts, and was reimbursed about 6 weeks later for my out of pocket expenses. Being responsible for covering 38 of the state's 63 counties, I was on the road at least 3 days every week, so motels, gas, and meals were a lot more expensive than an occasional box of ammo for range qualifications.

Long time ago. I expect the boys and girls have state-issued credit cards now. There were times when my out of pocket expenses exceeded my monthly salary, back in the day.
 
This is an OLD load, and was considered an anemic stopper. Despite this, it was the standard .38 special service load for decades. But when did it stop being used?

I believe the stopping anecdotes coincided with the start of the drug epidemic. The .38 Long Colt was similarly castigated when used against drugged, fanatical Moro warriors. Prior to those events,.38 caliber lead bullets were effectively employed all the way back to the .36 Navy Colt days so I am sceptical about the failure stories. There was probably no handgun round that would have stopped anyone in those cases unless CNS or other vital structure was struck. My department switched from R-P RNL to W-W HV SWC in 1972.

In our case, the only criticism of 158 gr RNL I remember was related to penetration of auto sheet metal. Otherwise it worked OK.
 
Local law enforcement usually followed the FBI's lead, whether it was right, wrong, questionable, or indifferent. Only a guess, but I suspect not much lead round nose .38 Special ammo was issued after the mid-70s.

Regardless, this "inferior" ammunition was used for for many, many years. Though quite a few sedentary self-anointed experts have opinions as to its effectiveness, it may have been used to save more than a few police officers while simultaneously cutting short the lives of numerous bad guys. However, I doubt there are accurate numbers going back the last eight or ten decades to document this.
 
I first hired on in 1967 and even then we used the .357 mag's. At various times throughout my career I used many auto's but mostly carried a revolver until my retirement in 1998. The auto's were the 1911, Browning HP, Walther P-38, S&W 39 and finally a Glock (which I hated) while working a retirement job for the U.S. Marshals.
 
I joined the PD in 1969 and we were issued the 158 gr. RN until sometime in the mid 70s when we changed over to JHP rounds.
 
Nothing wrong with 158 grains going 750 fps. Put it in the right spot, and it's as effective as anything out there.

Bullhockey!

It was and still is a horrible choice for self-defense. Don't confuse being lethal with stopping power. It is of little comfort to your family when your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

In the 1970's hollow point ammunition was a political hot potato in many cities across the nation. Race relations were bad and complaints of police brutality was common. So non-gun Police Administrators refused to change ammunition while officers died on the streets. As old Administrators retired new younger Officers took their place and armed the troops with better ammunition.
 
It was and still is a horrible choice for self-defense. Don't confuse being lethal with stopping power. It is of little comfort to your family when your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?
 
I had a good friend that was the Chief of Police in Laramie until the mid-'80's and he was still carrying the RNL load when he retired. I think his officers were allowed to carry their own, though, and I doubt many of them carried that load by then.
 
I lived in NYC for slightly over 50 years. During that time I remember quite well their S&W model 10's, Jay Pee bucket holsters and the 158grain lead round nosed bullet. That Jay Pee bucket holster was a miserable excuse for a holster. Basically just a leather bucket to hold the revolver. Back then it wasn't uncommon to read the paper to find out that during an arrest a criminal would snatch the revolver out of the holster and shoot the arresting officer. And I saw many police officers with the holster exposed to the elements so rain,snow and whatever would easily enter the holster. There was no top strap on these holsters. Frank
 
I remember my Dad (retired in 77) had some of the "new" +P (or +P+) .38 HP special "Law Enforcement Only" ammo in his "Burb of the Burgh" for a few years before I graduated from High School in 1971..... Actually came across a couple of boxes as I was cleaning out his stock at the cabin this summer....

remember keep it cool and dry !


IIRC the bullets are a semi-jacked 125gr hollow point......

Three different brands..... 50rd white box,two in 24/25 round(?) red and white and Green and white boxes....... don't recall the "Brands" but don't think they were one of the "Big Name Brands"

My Dad was a avid shooter; on the Dept's Pistol Team and a reloader.........don't know if the whole Dept was issued these new rounds but he did have them in his .357 Colt New Service and 4"M&P (1946)
 
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I lived in NYC for slightly over 50 years. During that time I remember quite well their S&W model 10's, Jay Pee bucket holsters and the 158grain lead round nosed bullet. That Jay Pee bucket holster was a miserable excuse for a holster. Basically just a leather bucket to hold the revolver. Back then it wasn't uncommon to read the paper to find out that during an arrest a criminal would snatch the revolver out of the holster and shoot the arresting officer. And I saw many police officers with the holster exposed to the elements so rain,snow and whatever would easily enter the holster. There was no top strap on these holsters. Frank

In theory, these holsters were supposed to retain the weapon by means of a leather strip sewn inside to catch the rear of the cylinder. If I remember correctly, you would twist the gun outward and then draw. Not a good system. The first holster I was issued was an Audley, a cross-draw. It had no retaining strap either. Instead, it was equipped with a spring-loaded tab that snapped into the trigger guard. To draw the weapon you had to insert your finger into the guard, push the button, and then draw. Yeah, that was really great. Looked good a parades, though.
 
Boise PD duty revolver was the model 10 with 4" barrel. Plain cloths
cops carried the model 10 with 2" barrel. By 1973 BPD had tried Super
Vel and abandoned it in favor of 140-Gr. Speer Soft Nose Hollow Point.
They loaded their own practice ammo. 146-Gr. Wadcutters.
BTW duty holster was the Jordan Border Patrol, plain or basketweave black.
 

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I think a lot of the knock on the 158 RNL is propaganda put out by the ammunition companies in order to sell us more expensive hollowpoint ammunition. They are continually getting us to jump through hoops. Look what is happening with the 40/9mm. All of a sudden the 40 is not required and you've just got to buy the super-duper 9mm ammuntion. It's happening with the guns too. You can't get much selling a 40 today. I bet in a few years the situation will reverse. So it goes.
 
I started my career in 1968 and was forced to use my duty weapon w/this old load twice. The first time it dropped the suspect before he could get off a shot and the second time in '74 several rounds only slowed the bad guy down a bit. My agency switched to the FBI hollow point +P in 1974 following my second officer involved shooting where the old RN round failed. I remember the Washington Post running a story claiming the local police were demanding "dum-dum" rounds claiming they were not humane. The old TV show Adam 12 even had an episode about how terrible hollow point rounds were.
 
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If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

My guess? For the most part it was probably availability. There likely wasn't any ammo designed specifically for self-defense at the time, so they just used what they could get with the least cost. I would hazard a guess that there likely weren't many people who knew or understood terminal ballistics. If shooting a bad guy didn't immediately stop him, it was probably chalked up to the bad guy being tough.

Add in institutional momentum, where organizations can be slow to change and adapt, and you get why some agencies still used LRN even after more effective ammo became available.
 
I think a lot of the knock on the 158 RNL is propaganda put out by the ammunition companies in order to sell us more expensive hollowpoint ammunition. They are continually getting us to jump through hoops. Look what is happening with the 40/9mm. All of a sudden the 40 is not required and you've just got to buy the super-duper 9mm ammuntion. It's happening with the guns too. You can't get much selling a 40 today. I bet in a few years the situation will reverse. So it goes.

Yes and no.

First the "no":

The standard pressure .38 Special 158 gr RN load has been considered questionable for self defense for a long time. General Julian Hatcher developed a rating for stopping power in the 1930s.

The Formula was:

RSP = MB * A * F *1000

where

RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index
MB = Momentum of the bullet in pound feet - (WB/450240) * V
A = Area of the bullet in square inches
F = Form factor (derived from the list below)

Form Factor:
Fully Jacketed Round Nose = 0.9
Lead Round Nose = 1.0
Lead Flat Point (small meplat) = 1.05
Lead flat point (large meplat) = 1.1
Lead Semi-wadcutter (Kieth types) and hollow points = 1.25

Hatcher didn't consider hollow points separately at the time as they didn't expand well at pistol velocities in the 1930s, so they were counted in with the Kieth type semi wad cutters, but a value of 1.35 has been assigned since then.

The classic .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ RN at 830 fps scored a hatcher rating of 62.

The .357 Magnum with a 158 gr LSWC at 1,450 fps out of 4" revolver will score 64.

A .357 Magnum with a 125 gr hollow point at 1300 fps in a 2.5" revolver scores 49.

The .38+ P with a 158 gr LSWCHP at 890 fps out of a 4" revolver scores 39 (using the old 1.25 value) or 43 (using the newer 1.35 value).

The original military 9mm LUger with a 124 gr FMJ RN at 1200 fps scores a 29.

In contrast, the standard pressure .38 Special with a 158 gr LRN at 755 fps will produce a Hatcher rating of just 26.

That's only a single point higher than the Army issue .38 Colt with a 148 gr bullet at 750 fps (a Hatcher rating of 25), the load that was considered ineffective in the Philippines.

In terms of scaling, a round had to score a 25 to be considered minimally effective, and a score of 50 or higher was considered to be very desirable.

The .38 Special with a 158 gr LSWC at the same 755 fps increases the score to a more respectable 33.

The .38 special target load with a 148 gr wad cutter at 710 fps scores a 29. In short, it's hard to do worse than the 158 gr .38 LRN on the Hatcher with a .38 Special

Hatcher based his results on testing conducted with live cattle, live goats, and human cadavers, something that would be frowned upon today.

My point here isn't to argue the validity of the Hatcher rating for stopping power purposes but rather to underscore the point that even in the 1930s, the 158 gr LRN load was considered to be pretty anemic, and that the using a LSWC, and/or a larger diameter bullet, and/or more velocity were all considered prudent at the time.

----

Next the "yes":

I agree with you that there is way too much advertising and internet expert pressure to use a super super high performance bullet. And it's even less relevant for some cartridges than others.

The 9mm has become a very effective self defense cartridge due to the development of hollow points that expand reliably. However, the difference between a 124 gr Hornady XTP at 1110 fps that expands to about 1.5x its original diameter and one of the higher end premium bullets that expands to about 1.65x its original diameter (but may penetrate less) isn't worth mentioning.

Bullet placement matters, so it makes sense to buy a middle of the round that still expands reliably, but that you can afford to shoot twice as often.

In the .357 Magnum, it's difficult to find a JHP or JSP load that doesn't perform acceptably well.
 
IN 50s and 60s most small town PDs were using 38sp RN and some still using 32 S&W longs. Late 60s saw them go to 357s and middle 80s the trend to autos. Last batch of revolvers I sold to a PD were 686s and first batch of autos were S&W 39s.some of the unencorported villages with town marshal or constibles still using six shooters.
 
We had an attempted Aircraft hijacking in the 80s and the police at the airport were still using 38 RN ammo. One of the officers attempted to shoot a tire out on the aircraft with his service revolver(M-19) and the bullet bounced off the tire. Another officer shot the same tire with a 357(don't know the bullet) and the tire went down in a hurry. During the gun battle another airport cop shot at the BG through the loading door window and the bullet also failed to penetrate. The Airport cops very soon after went to 357 rounds
 
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