We all have certain ammo/firearm pet peeves.
Here is one of mine: Ammo for sale with no point of reference concerning its ballistic or chronograph results!!
I wanted to ask you guys for any potential info concerning these two particular ammo offerings:

1.) SAA -9mm 124 Grain GDHP Nickel-Brass Cased - SAA Personal Protection JHP. It uses a Speer GD bullet. Here is all the customer service rep said, "It's loaded to standard SAAMI spec pressure, not +P or hotter. I do not have chrono data from production otherwise!"

SAA Personal Protection 9mm 124 gr. GDHP Nickel Plated Brass Cased Ammunition For Sale In Stock | Surplus Ammo

2. 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Di-Cut Jacketed Hollow Point Black Dot Ammo By IMI of Israel
50 Round Box - 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Di-Cut Jacketed Hollow Point Black Dot Ammo By IMI of Israel | SGAmmo.com

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	SAA-9mm-124-GDHP-VP-SITE-s-o__87741.1605034941.jpg (86.4 KB, 31 views)
	TriCUT 124.jpg (123.8 KB, 46 views)

This is of little importance with regard to handgun ammo. You can do some research and find what similar loads by other makers do over a chronograph. The ammo you mentioned will likely be relatively close in velocity to the other loads. Depending on all the changeable factors involved, a 10% variation in actual velocity one way or the other is reasonable and to be expected.

This takes on importance with high velocity rifle cartridges intended for long range use.

I understand your perspective. That chit doesn't fly with me! As a paying customer, I like to know the details of what I'm purchasing and it is important to me. I hold all my ammo and my life to the highest standard whether I'm blasting high-end rifles or more clandestine EDC!

Please pardon me; I apologize for commenting. Just an opinion based on experience.

It's all good, no offense taken.
I was already cognizant of that experience & perspesctive.

Bless ya.

I chased that fox until I did a lot of chrono work for matches, and was forced to the realization that I could either chrono the load of interest in MY GUN, or I could keep guessing and being frustrated. I bought my own PACT chronograph and KNOW what I'm getting with each load, either commercial or handload.
Even detailed factory information, such as data was taken with a 7 inch vented test barrel, often proves to be wildly different than actual chrono test in MY 5" M&P Pro. Loss of velocity with a shorter barrel depends on the powder used and the individual barrel. I have 2 "identical" 4" Model 66 S&Ws that consistently chrono 30 fps different.

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Science plus Art

Excellent advice. I've been looking into that.
I see that there is a wide spectrum of chronos & prices out there.
Most look affordable & practical, any particular brand you'd recommend?

This sounds like good practice ammo.
If you’re going to carry and trust you’re life with the ammo in you’re EDC why not use the best possible ammo you can afford?
I trust my life with Underwood ammo, i train with Underwood ammo and have never had a failure in my 320 9mm or my Ed Brown 1911.
Ed Brown once told me alway use good ammo in you’re 1911,
Pay the little extra for it because it builds confidence in you’re EDC.
Using **** ammo which misfires, fails to feed or eject etc leads you to think its a problem with your weapon when its the **** ammo you’re using hence you then have a confidence problem with your EDC.
Just my opinion.

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Terry

Terry,

I hear what you're saying for sure. I've not invested in or shot any Underwood, yet I've read many reviews and seen enough YouTube videos for it to resonate.

As far as my EDC is concerned this would not be used for that purpose...more as you had stated for practice or critter blasting up at my Fathers place.

My comfort zone and what I carry are the following: Speer GD 124+P, Federal HST 124, 124+P, 147, & 147+P.
Got a decent amount bonded Golden Sabers +P & Winchester Ranger 147 as well.

Appreciate your sharing...valid points.

How much money do you want to spend? The Labradar chrono is most convenient and consistent, the triple screens were the standard before the radar came along, and the most popular cheap ones are OK for casual use. The ones that put the whole chrono on the firing line will get shot, usually by someone who just wants to use it one time while you're using it at the range.

I bought a PACT since I tend to standardize loads and only re-chrono them when I change something. My "experimenting" phase of trying a new load each week was over years ago.

CED units are popular. I have no information on the current crop of Caldwell, but developed a negative impression from their models 10 years ago. Watch out for models that only work in certain weather.
No sky screens like to be pointed at cloudless deep blue sky without proper shielding. Learn how to set up your chrono.

Read the reviews and ask your local USPSA or IDPA clubs.
And if you have bucks to burn, a LABRADAR will solve all your problems.

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Science plus Art

Way back when I got into long range competition, I picked up a PACT unit. The electronics are separate from the screens, so if you pull a shot, you're only replacing a sky screen or 2. The screen mounting bracket takes care of making sure your screens are the proper distance apart. Great customer service.

Good info.
Money is relative...lol

Regarding revolvers, even with identical loads, two different revolvers, even with the same barrel lengths, will typically produce significantly different average MVs, by possibly as much as 200 ft/sec. I have determined this myself. This is due to differences in barrel-cylinder gaps and other dimensional differences. The ONLY way to know what the MV is from YOUR revolver for any specific load is to get a chrono. Published ammo manufacturer's (or handload handbook) MV data is absolutely worthless (even that taken from a vented test barrel) when it comes to revolvers. If it matters to you, get your own MV data for your own revolver. I can't tell you the edition, but one of the Speer handbooks has a lengthy section on exactly this topic and provides the same advice.

***UPDATED INFO***
These are the specs found on 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Di-Cut Jacketed Hollow Point Black Dot Ammo By IMI of Israel

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2021-08-09 (2).jpg (26.4 KB, 26 views)

Just because there is data on a ammo box.............

does not mean it will be the same in your weapon.

It could be slower or maybe faster....................
if you need to know the fps of a load a chrony is needed but....
a SD load is usually good enough to work on the BG if you put enouh in them.

Nevada Ed,

Brother, you have a fine grasp for the obvious. lol
I am aware of all the mitigating factors affecting the performance results of ammo & firearms.
I was posting an update to display that I had @ least found SOME point of reference from my original post.

Reggie, for the most part, you'll get mostly useless information from the manufacturers about velocity data. If they record it, it'll usually be from a "test barrel" of some unknown length and probably unvented, which us useless when checking for ammo performance in revolvers.

Your friend in this case is YouTube. There is a ton of videos out there of people doing real-world chrono testing that will likely get you a lot closer to reality for your use.

Relative to the two ammo models you noted, I don't know SAA but the fact that they're using Gold Dot bullets is a good thing. At least you know that it will perform as long as it's driven faster than about 800 fps.

As to IMI, if I recall correctly, they generally use Sierra bullets. The IMI hollow points are pretty bad performers for expansion. So if the price is right for practice ammo, then you're probably fine. If you're going to carry it to defend your life, you may be using a pseudo-FMJ.

I got it. That is the general consensus and what I have gathered via youTube.
The only revolvers I have are .38, .327 Federal...nothing 9 mm.
I do have several firearms in 9mm semi-automatic & carbine.
I don't know how "revolvers" came into play?
Great intel & I'm much obliged.

Just a general comment about the uselessness of manufacturer's data.

That IMI +P stuff is essentially Winchester Black Talons.

Hmm...I'd be interested to read or hear more about that potential relationship.
They do favor...
Got any sources I can research?

I go to Youtube and look up shooting data by shooters on ammo that I need info on.
"Shooting the Bull"... a guy from Tn and also if you can find this young man,
"Buffman..." there will be data from 3 to 16" 9mm weapons, that shows load weight, powder load, bullet & chrony info.

I don't have a YouTube channel, but have always been ballistically curious and have been chronographing ammo for about 40 years now. I agree that different guns, even by the same manufacturer, with same barrel length produce different results.

Reggie, I have chronographed 9mm +P Gold Dot, but don't recall testing the standard pressure 124 grain version. Coincidentally, a few days ago, I chronographed some of the IMI 124 JHP "Black Dot" in a few different guns. Listed as 1180 FPS in a 4" barrel, my results were, as expected, a bit different.

The IMI Black Dot JHP averaged 1139 FPS in a 3 1/2" semi-auto, 1179 FPS in a 4.7" semi-auto, 1186 FPS in a 3" revolver, and 1278 FPS in a 16" carbine. Other's results will obviously vary, but these were just a few real world, non factory test barrel, results. I neglected to take a 4" semi-auto to the range, but past experience indicates that my 4" semi-auto produces velocities not significantly different than the 3 1/2" gun. Often as not in fact, the 3 1/2" gun produces velocities a few FPS more than my particular 4" pistol.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Hey Rock85,

I appreciate this detailed info. I knew that with the same ammo it will perform differently when fired from different guns/barrel lengths. Yet, I enjoyed hearing your results. from those various barrel lengths.

Not bad results from IMI "Black Dots". My S&W Shield does exceptional with everything I've thrown at it. My CANIK TP9SF is about 4.5 inches also.
So this allows me to have some ballpark ideas for my personal use.

What I have noticed is that a lot of manufacturers' Chronographed results on their box/labels often VARY from some of the ammo websites that retail them. Another batch of guys will list NOTHING performance-wise, only that it's 9mm & JHP/FMJ! LOL

Last, but not least I did get in some 9mm 124 GDHP SAA from SurplusAmmo.Com. It is a Speer Gold Dot bullet and is close to my Gold Dots 124gr +P and the headstamps online of 124 gr non+P when compared.

Here is a pic.

Thanks again,

Reg

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Gold Dot 124 grain.jpg (52.9 KB, 6 views)

After 40+ years of reloading, I finally broke down and bought a chronograph. Now I find myself chasing numbers instead of accuracy. At my age where day by day the groups grow larger--even if only a fraction of MOA--I'm considering ditching the chrono and going back to group size and disregarding the rest.

I hear ya...and that is a valid point.
Guess what?
Found the ever-elusive and highly fabled Federal HST 147+P JHP's online---BOUGHT the last 50rd box!!!

A chronograph remains a useful tool but has little to do with accuracy. I'll assume by "chasing numbers" you're referring to Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation. These numbers (unless they are incredibly dissimilar to the point accuracy is horrible) are not worth much in predicting accuracy, unless you're shooting at extreme ranges.

Getting low ES and SD numbers has become an Internet/ YouTube fad these days, but few seem to understand that low numbers indicate consistency only, not accuracy. Far too many other factors also affect accuracy and often to a greater degree. Low numbers hurt nothing, but work on accuracy by load development and group shooting. If you don't even look at the ES and SD numbers, you might be better off.

IMHO, a 5% variation (i.e., + or - 50 fps around 1K) in velocity between one (factory) handgun bullet and another is both to be expected and, in most cases, irrelevant as far as practical performance is concerned: at the range it can be measured, either with a chrony or on the target(?), and in an offensive/defensive context the ultimate effect is probably going to be the same... This anticipates sufficient velocity to expand, BTW.

If one can reload and meet or exceed factory numbers and consistency, so much the better.

Nothing wrong with holding manufacturers to higher standards using the ol' power of the pocketbook either.

CHEERS!

P.S. One "LIKE" in 12 postings...? Huh?

Did the just powder thing.............
then got a chrony.............

I don't know if I was happier before or after.............

Tight groups are nice but with so many powders and bullet weights......
it is a night mare !!

Within rather narrow limits, the SD of the MV doesn't affect grouping performance greatly. (important side note - "Accuracy" means something entirely different from group size). There are various factors which affect grouping performance that are unrelated to the SD of the MV. Among those are gun characteristics such as barrel bedding, headspace, chamber dimensions, condition of the bore, trigger pull, and rifling twist; and ammunition characteristics, such as bullet weight, bullet concentricity, bullet shape, jump distance of the bullet into rifling, propellant type, propellant charge, and primer used. Then there are range conditions, such as air temperature, wind speed, wind direction, and mirage. I remember reading an article on bench rest shooting once which indicated that two very important (but largely ignored) factors for getting the smallest group are uniformity of case length and finding the optimum cartridge overall length for a specific bullet (which of course is indicitive of the bullet jump distance of your gun). Most bench rest shooters are very aware of those two items and take care to give them their proper attention. Obviously, such factors are of different magnitudes for rifles vs. handguns.