Winchester 38 Spl +P “FBI Load” Chronographed in S&W Heavy Duty 5 in

38SPL HV

38SPL HV

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Finally got around to chronograph Winchester’s 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP “FBI Load” (X38SPD) from my S&W Heavy Duty 38 Special 5 inch revolver - 10 shots:

# Shot/MV
1. 912 fps
2. 914 fps
3. 911 fps
4. 911 fps (duplicate)
5. 875 fps
6. 901 fps
7. 938 fps
8. 904 fps
9. 916 fps
10. 944 fps

Hi 944
Lo 875
Avg 912
ES 69
SD 18

Notes: Of the three “FBI Loads,” Rem/Fed/Win, Winchester’s load was the slowest. The following summarizes these loads from the S&W HD 5 inch:

Average velocities (10 shot strings each):
Remington - 955 fps (ES 60 SD 16)
Federal - 931 fps (ES 30 SD 11)
Winchester - 912 fps (ES 69 SD 18)

Comparison with standard velocity load in same S&W HD 5 inch:
Remington UMC 38 Spl 158 gr RNL - 828 fps (ES 50 SD 15)
 
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If you perform a pairwise statistical T-test, you will probably find that there are no statistically significant differences among the mean velocities of the three brands. You can do that in MS Excel. It would be best to use the same revolver chamber for all testing in order to remove a confounding variable.
 
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Even though these loads might work;

I am just glad that the new style all copper or HST, etc. bullets are available, to us

other than the old school "FBI" loads for SD use.

At one time they were "King of the Mountain".
 
38SPL HV said:
......
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Notes: Of the three “FBI Loads,” Rem/Fed/Win, Winchester’s load was the slowest. The following summarizes these loads from the S&W HD 5 inch:

Average velocities (10 shot strings each):
Remington - 955 fps (ES 60 SD 16)
Federal - 931 fps (ES 30 SD 11)
Winchester - 912 fps (ES 69 SD 18)

Comparison with standard velocity load in same S&W HD 5 inch:
Remington UMC 38 Spl 158 gr RNL - 828 fps (ES 50 SD 15)
Click to expand...

First off, thank you again for posting your results. So many shooters here don't have a chrono so it's good to have really world numbers instead of the numbers from load manuals and on the factory ammo box alone.

I have been taking screen shots of all your posted data so I can go back and reference it. Your data is very useful, thanks again...

So many shooters consider the Remington FBI load as the "best" or don't even know there were (are) others. I have always like the Federal load best and as your numbers bare out they show the best ES and SD numbers.

I have 4 boxes (maybe 5) of those Federal FBI loads that didn't have the crimp. I didn't send it back because at the time Federal told me they couldn't replace them, they were going to issue a reimbursement instead. Since I really wanted the ammo I kept it and I applied the crimp myself. They shot very well, as well as some of the older Federal ammo I had as a comparison.

I'm fairly sure the Remington ammo has the softest lead so it will more reliability expand so that may be the reason for it's popularity.

I probably have enough of the FBI load ammo to last my lifetime. I bought it because when I do carry my 1948 4" M&P or my 2" Chief's Special that is the ammo I load in both. After all, that load was developed for carry in those guns. (and the Colt too)
 
DWalt said:
If you perform a pairwise statistical T-test, you will probably find that there are no statistically significant differences among the mean velocities of the three brands. You can do that in MS Excel. It would be best to use the same revolver chamber for all testing in order to remove a confounding variable.
Click to expand...

Great idea, particularly the same revolver chamber…now which chamber? 😀
 
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38SPL HV said:
Great idea, particularly the same revolver chamber…now which chamber? 😀
Click to expand...
Another great thread. I have several boxes of the original load from before the +P designation. These are much warmer than the present day loads. I wonder now if the mfgrs intentionally "watered down" these loads because they were concerned about wear, damage, and, as always, possible legal issues.

Originally (perhaps 'still'), these had the mfgr code 38SPD on the box flap. W-W also produced a sister load with the same bullet weight and ballistics (1010 fps, chrono'd) except the bullet was a lead SWC with the code 38WCP. Both of these old loads were ring-tailed tooters. I knew a NYPD cop, a heavy hitter who carried these SWCs in his service revolver against regulations when the BLA was murdering cops.

I can't understand how the development of newer bullet designs has relegated these older loads to the scrap heap. I guess it's like the old propeller-driven aircraft that cannot fly due to the introduction of jet engines...;)

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
While I am no fan of Remington ammunition (due to the poor quality of it as of lately), I will say their version of the old "FBI load" is the best of the big three (at least for velocity and soft lead bullets). If you really want a serious "FBI load, take a look at Buffalo Bore. Their actual results according to the 2 different Chronographs I own and shot out of my 2" M60-7, averaged 1,025 - 1,040 fps. That is serious from a 2" bbl. That is much better performance than the ammo you tested out of a 5" barrel.

In your 5" barrel, you should get between 1,150 - 1,200 fps with BB - that's Magnum range velocities! And that is their .38 spl. 158 grain "Heavy" loading! The Remington version will get you under 875 fps in a 4-5" bbl. (on a good day) from what I have personally tested.

The downside of BB ammo is the price. That said, you are not buying these to target shoot with every week! The other downside is recoil. You need to see if that is something you can handle. Out of a 5" tube, recoil should not be an issue. In a 2" Chief's Spl. it's a bit tougher.
 
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38SPL HV said:
Finally got around to chronograph Winchester’s 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP “FBI Load” (X38SPD) from my S&W Heavy Duty 38 Special 5 inch revolver - 10 shots:

# Shot/MV
1. 912 fps
2. 914 fps
3. 911 fps
4. 911 fps (duplicate)
5. 875 fps
6. 901 fps
7. 938 fps
8. 904 fps
9. 916 fps
10. 944 fps

Hi 944
Lo 875
Avg 912
ES 69
SD 18

Notes: Of the three “FBI Loads,” Rem/Fed/Win, Winchester’s load was the slowest. The following summarizes these loads from the S&W HD 5 inch:

Average velocities (10 shot strings each):
Remington - 955 fps (ES 60 SD 16)
Federal - 931 fps (ES 30 SD 11)
Winchester - 912 fps (ES 69 SD 18)

Comparison with standard velocity load in same S&W HD 5 inch:
Remington UMC 38 Spl 158 gr RNL - 828 fps (ES 50 SD 15)
Click to expand...

Just a note of interest, maybe;
In 1950, the Remington Hi-Speed 158 gr bullet out of a 4" revolver
did 920fps.

No such thing as a +P load back then.
 
Not trying to steal the thread , just want to post my results from today . I had loaded some 38 special brass with 5.8 grs of Unique and seated my own cast bullet , Lyman 358429 (Keith swc ) 173 grs and crimped in the crimp groove . I fired them out of my model 19's , 2.5" and 4" barrels and I will tell you that it's " deadly accurate " and quite powderful . Probably not 38-44 type but more than 38+P . I tipped the gun up and the cases literally fell out . I don't have a chrono so no data available . I will be loading more . Regards Paul
 
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For the chamber loaded 5 shot J-frames I carry... It's Buffalo Bores standard pressure, 150 grain, Hard Cast Full-Wadcutters. They are devastating on flesh and bone because of the Meplate and how they crush and plow thru tissue. No flash from a 2" barrel either. For back up loads it's BB's 158 standard pressure LSWCHP's. The soft lead used deforms quite easy and are far easier to reload the cylinder with under stress than the aforementioned true wads or I would carry the wads exclusively.

I've known and known of several long retired NYC cops that swear by the full wads loaded to 800+ fps as being absolute fight stoppers when hitting perps in the stomach and/or pelvis.
 
Versatile

jeeps said:
That's a good load in the 900fps+ out of the 5". No need to hotrod it . A proven load and still on top of the heap today.
Click to expand...

It even isn't bad from a plain vanilla 4", and would likely be potent out of a 3".
 
Thanks for your write up.
Back in the mid teens I visited a pawn shop that always had a couple of boxes of those {X38SPD+P}on the shelf. They were priced at $11 per box of 50. I always bought what he had out on the shelf and he always had a couple of more there when ever I went back. I still have several boxes left and they are in my Model 60 at all times.
 
Old cop said:
I used the old FBI load in a 1983 on duty shooting. It put the suspect down (he lived) and the hostage was saved.
Click to expand...

Usually the "Perp" once hit in the gut will instantaneous and stop all unpleasant behavior and cry loud and incessantly long for their mama's from the eye witness accounts with this load/Revo in the 3 accounts I've heard of!

Good job on putting down the dirt-bag and saving the deserving one!

-Hams
 
HamHands said:
For the chamber loaded 5 shot J-frames I carry... It's Buffalo Bores standard pressure, 150 grain, Hard Cast Full-Wadcutters. They are devastating on flesh and bone because of the Meplate and how they crush and plow thru tissue. No flash from a 2" barrel either. For back up loads it's BB's 158 standard pressure LSWCHP's. The soft lead used deforms quite easy and are far easier to reload the cylinder with under stress than the aforementioned true wads or I would carry the wads exclusively.

I've known and known of several long retired NYC cops that swear by the full wads loaded to 800+ fps as being absolute fight stoppers when hitting perps in the stomach and/or pelvis.
Click to expand...

Interesting how a simple "soup can" lead bullet is making a comeback in defensive revolver ammunition. Underwood also has a "full power" standard pressure coated hard cast wadcutter in their current 38Spl. line.

Note I said "comeback." The January 1941 Winchester Ammunition Jobber's Price List* also had a "full charge" clean cut wadcutter round listed next to the "Mid-Range" version.

* Page 11

https://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/WESTERN/WCC-1941-2 Jan-Jobbers PL.pdf
 
SpadXII said:
At least the Remington factory ammunition is SAFE to use in any gun, and is actually within ANY 38 special pressure limit range. from ANY decade.

Buffalo Bore is loading well within 38-44 or 357 starting data to create thier ammunition. As a result, they are relying SOLELY upon the SAAMI standard of "make sure your firearm can survive a 130-150% of maximum average chamber pressure cartridge.
ie, an overload
Click to expand...


I am certainly interested in just how you determined that Buffalo Bore is loading ammo to 130% - 150% of chamber pressure. Do you actually have the equipment to verify this?

I have been using their ammo for years now in many different firearms - old and new with never any issues. I also have many friends and acquaintances who use BB ammo without any issues at all. Are we all just lucky or is this simply an over statement? I am truly asking politely not accusing you of anything. If you actually can prove your statement I'd like to know more. If in fact BB is over charging their ammo up to 150% I'd like to see that.
 
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