A number of years ago, I acquired the ammunition stockpile from the widow of a retired Secret Service Agent. These Winchester Western Caliber 38 Special 110 GR. Jacketed Hollow points were included.

As noted on the back of the box, maximum average pressure is 15% higher than industry + P Standard.

I was wondering if any forum members (LEO or others) have had first hand experience with this load and any other information about it. Including but not limited to - what standard issue sidearm these were used in at the time?

(I have read Mike Woods excellent Revolverguy.com article about this ammo.)

Attached Images

	DSCF6007.jpg (123.3 KB, 328 views)
	DSCF6008.jpg (136.2 KB, 252 views)

__________________
Lee Erickson

To give you some idea... that's less pressure than original Super Vel 110 gr. ammo, considerably less than the hottest factory ammo of pre+P days, the Norma 110 gr., and about the same as the hottest Remington factory offering (can't remember whether it was 110 or 125 gr.). This was around 1970-'71. Still, yours is comparatively pretty warm ammo, but used in moderation it should be fine in any quality steel-framed .38 in sound condition.

I'm not an expert and I've never heard of Mike Woods. If he's a bonafide expert, listen to his advice.

I had a lot of dealings with the USSS from 86 to 2000. They used my range for Quals and night fire Quals. They used blued model 19 Smiths for many a moon until going to Model 229's in 357 Sig.

Thy 38 Special rounds were all head stamped +P+. They also fired that round in Model 60 Smith's as that was the only backup revolver allowed to be carried. Until the Sig 230 was allowed when they went to semi-autos.

Also known as the "Treasury Load"...

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...ry-load/389102


Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

+P+ Treasury Load. Hard on the revolver, and designed to mimic a low end .357 Magnum without having to say anything to the public about use of "magnums." Back then, the nut jobs (they have always been with us in one form or another) were loud and stupid about "the man" using magnum loads. Inhuman, torture, whatever. Always a big load of BS. Anyway, if you want to know what shooting one is like, get the Winchester White Box .357 Magnum 110 grain load. Duplicates the ballistics, but in a magnum case instead of a 38 Special case. The USSS wanted a load that would not over-penetrate, and they were listening to the LEAA computer model about low bullet weight, high velocity being the answer. Obviously, it was proven later that it wasn't the answer. The world moved on and those loads are more of a collector's item and curiosity now.

I have a box of those and have shot some through a K frame 38 and also a J frame 640. They are the ammo that stays in the 640. Since I have never shot anyone with them, I have no idea how well they might work, or not.

__________________
Regards,

Tom

I have four boxes of the Super Vel 110 gr 38 ammo...wonder how that would feel out of our 640?

Robert

__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Shot a fair amount of it back in the day through the issued 2 1/2" Model 19 and 2 1/2" Model 66. As has been stated above, this was a work around to avoid public wailing about Treasury Department agents carrying "magnum" ammunition. Recoil wasn't bad with the Model 19 and 66, but it was a bit snappy with the Model 36 or 60 backup revolvers. With the move to semi-autos, issuance of this particular round went the way of the Dodo bird.

I have several boxes that are just momentos of earlier LEO days.

Before the +P designation, if the gun and ammo both said ".38 Special" no one questioned suitability of ammo for a particular gun. A lot of Super Vel .38 Special was fired in J-frame revolvers.

I agree with the Shooting times data using w231 & Unique for a +P loading.

In my 686 6" with the 38 case the Unique will get 1132fps.

On 2/11/2011, the 110 gr Sierra with a full load of Unique reached 1305fps.

My J frame 125 JHP +P load can do 905fps but 888fps is more accurate
while that 38 case loading in my 686 will do 1025fps and with the heavier frame
a full load of Unique will do 1210fps with a 38 case, loading.

Some revolvers do well with "Hot loads" while some of my maximum loads need
to be reduced a little to get top accuracy, for target or pest control.

Back in the 80's I fired quite a few rounds from my S&W model 66. It didn't hurt the revolver. Despite claims by the FBI that it was an excellent defense round (based on White Laboratories testing) it didn't perform well under actual conditions when used for self defense in the field. Due to political climate, it was a baby step forward, finally ending with the .357 mag. 125 gr. JHP being accepted. This was not long before federal agencies switching to .40 S&W cal. semi-auto pistols.

This was the “Treasury Round”

The 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP aka “FBI Load” was/is superior…

People certainly did have concerns about "high speed" .38 Special ammunition before the advent of the +P label.

Some of that discussion is documented in this 1973 book now on archive.org
Allen P. Bristow The Search for an Effective Police Handgun

Bristow, Allen The Search for an Effective Police Handgun 1973 with Appendix : CMSmith688 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Revolverguy article is not perfect but it's as good as there is.

Well I don't think I would like to stand in front of a 4" 38 special
and say, "Make my day", with a 110gr. "Treasery load".

"Thank you, thank you, very much."

I own a S&W M&P shipped before they called them the M10 and a Chief's Special that gets nothing but the FBI load when carried. That load was and is made for those revolvers and they still shoot the best IMO.

The classic 158gr LSWC HP round will never be equaled for those older revolvers. (again IMO of course)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

True, but I wouldn't want to stand in front of a .22 short pistol and dare to be shot. BTW, back in the day, I never considered the Department of the Treasury to be the lead agency in firearms/ ammo development.

In the spirit of fun discussion rather than argument:

The "FBI Load" 158 grain SWCHP was developed by Winchester for --- St. Louis PD.

Circa 1970-72 by my quick check, Treasury agents had Super Vel .38 and .357 and trained at FLET-C.

IIRC Treasury also conducted the misguided 1970's "jello" tests, so we'll ignore that part. I'm blanking. What was the name given those tests?

This is a rare case of the manufacturer actually stating the pressure of their round. What was the tested pressure of Super-Vel or FBI? If we don't know, it's all speculation.

I don't think there was any speculation involved. I'd have to look up the exact figures, but Super Vel was around 21,000, maybe a little less. Remington was around 23,000 or a bit more, Norma was the hottest at 27000 or so. Speer-DWM, I can't remember for sure; think it was between Remington and Norma. There may be one or two others. I can get out the article tomorrow and check if you need more information. These were all measured by Lee Jurras in the Super Vel plant about 1970 and published in HANDLOADER magazine. I'm pretty sure these were about the most accurate figures available at the time.

If I remember right Massad Ayoob liked to carry an airweight model 38 nickel snub nose for a back up gun. He knew it wasn’t recommended to carry the treasury load in his gun, but he did, and said it stretched out the frame.

He was fortunate. I cracked the frame of my nickel Model 38 using standard pressure handloads, and very few of those. Seems the frame would crack before it stretched.

Way back in the old days, (before gel paks) I remember a large test on ammo done by a company
that checked out the energy of a bullet with barrel lengths and amount of time
that it took goats to expire.

I will stop here, since this might be a "Can of worms" about to fall over.

Here are the actual .38 Special pressure figures for the testing done by Lee Jurras in the Super Vel Lab (HANDLOADER #27, Sept. 1970). There was more here than I remembered. Velocity is from 4" Colt MK III
Remington-Peters 158 JHP 20,000 832
Winchester-Western 158 LHP 19,000 924
Speer-DWM 158 JSP 19,285 817
RWS 158 JHP 21,457 910
Speer DWM 140 JHP 24,756 1,010
Remington-Peters 125 JHP 21,250 1,055
Speer-DWM 125 JSP 23,150 1,068
Norma 110 JHP 27,250 1,193
Super Vel 110 JHP 19,000 1,090

I was issued this load to carry in a model 10 in the 80’s, we carried 2” & 4”. I was used to shooting full throttle 357’s in my own K frames, so this +P+ 110 load was no biggie for me. I could not really tell the difference between it and any number of +P 158 gr loads that I was shooting back then.
Post#5 sums up the history and the thinking of that era that brought about this load.
I chrono’ed it years ago, but do not remember what it actually clocked at.
It was certainly an improvement IMO over what we had carried previously. Having said that, I was never a fan of the “lighter-faster” school, I favored the “heavier-faster” approach.
I still have some of the +P+ Treasury loads, will have to run some of them by my Labradar to refresh my memory.

Attached Images

287AB224-C734-4125-A93F-2E4AA7DF4ACB.jpg (69.6 KB, 75 views)

In any handgun round I want it to shoot to POI

At what range?....as it kind of varies.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

I was a USSS agent from 1982 to 2002.
110 gr JHP Treasury load by W-W and Federal was what we carried in our S&W M-19 2.5 ". Our back up or off-duty - Colt or S&W - 5 or 6 shot - steel, SS or airweight. We used to shoot factory wadcutters in the smaller frame guns for requals so we didn't beat em' up with the Treasury load.

The 110 gr Treasury load was designed to not over- penetrate especially if agents had to fire their weapon during a protective assignment. There were a number of shootings with the 110 gr Treasury load and it performed fairly well - most shootings occurred during our various criminal investigations.

We transitioned to SIG 228 in 9mm around 1993 (?). We had a special load by Remington - 115 gr HP +P+. That was a good load in the SIG 228. Eventually we went to SIG 229 in .357 SIG. That was a a hot round and the SIG 229 was a great gun.

I was forced to shoot a hostage taker just beyond arms length w/the FBI Load in ‘83 and it dropped him, allowing the hostage to escape so I know that round works.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

My father was an Idaho State Trooper for 21 years (73-94). ISP carried the Winchester 110 grain +P+ load for 12 years (79-91) in their Model 65s and the round never failed any troopers who had to fire their revolver in the line of duty.

__________________
I type. Therefore I am.

The only real-world experience I had with 110 grain hollow points was 1 woodchuck shot at a few feet away, using a hot loaded 357 magnum and Hornady 110 grain hp. The woodchuck though only weighing a couple pounds was able to stop the bullet and it was recovered inside the chest cavity and had not even made it to the offside.

Here is some old school ammo. The fabled Winchester +P+ 110 JHP, the Remington 158 Grain SWCHP +P (notice the new box, since I shoot a lot of this load) and the old Norma 158 Grain SWC. The Norma is pretty hot, and since it is not soft lead like the Remington, this is what I carry in speed strips for the reload. I like the 158 Grain since most of my fixed sight revolvers are factory regulated for 158 grain bullets. I did shoot a deer once with the +P+ load out of a 4 inch Model 19. Dropped that doe like a stone.

Attached Images

Olden Days Ammo.JPG (146.1 KB, 59 views)

Here is the Norma box a little closer.

Attached Images

Norma 158 +P.JPG (133.2 KB, 44 views)

I have a box of Winchester and a box of Federal, can't say I really like them. IMHO, they were issued to Fed's so that the anti gun public would not be screaming , Magnums, Magnums - take those Magnums away!

Other than for nostalgia, I believe there are much better options now days.

We used the +P+ load in 2 1/2 Model 19's in the 80's before the agency went to P220's in .45.
Never put one on a person but they shot great.
Very flat which helped with quals since our course included 12 rounds at 50 yards.
The cases are nickle colored and actually headstamped with +P+.
Still have some.

Thanks a lot for the interesting read. As European guy it is always interesting to read more about the 38 special loads with lighter bullet weight than the standard 158 grain rounds. Here in Europe 158 grain seems to be standard weight for 38 spc loads. Here in Austria the 38 special is more a pure round for taget shooting without any law enforcement history I think. As far as I know the standard rounds for policing here in Austria where the 32 acp before they went with the 9mm.

I think European police adopted the semi auto pistols about a half century before we did in the US.

73,
Rick

I have this picture in my files that I keep for data, that I found on the net.
Lots of information on the load as well as some fps & pressures.

One source stated that troopers like using the M65 for this load.

Here you go.

Have quite a bit of that stuck away. I was close friends with a retired ATF SA, and unfortunately he was an early Covid victim, dying a couple of years back. He gifted me many boxes of both the Winchester and Federal .38 +P+ 'Treasury load'. He'd gotten much of it from a fellow retiree who just wanted to get rid of stuff in a move.

IIRC, he told me they had used it some in S&W M640 .38 revolvers that were marked for '+P+'.

Guess I'll shoot it up one day - as far as really good SD ammo, there's plenty of other stuff out there.

__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

I have nearly a case of the W-W 110 gr. +P+...don't shoot it often. I've seen a couple of aluminum frame guns with blown off or fractured top straps that used this ammo..it can stretch the frames of a steel framed .38 Special revolver with excessive use. It should be relegated to .357 Magnum revolvers only.

With all that being said...my Python snubby loves this ammo! Colt with its 1:14 rate of twist is generally considered better for heavy bullets but that 2.5" Python shoots it like target wadcutters group-wise.

As far as Treasury Load or FBI Load comparisons...each agency has its own needs and protocols for ammunition selection...and they don't often match. It's pretty much a fool's errand to compare them when the choosing agency was looking for different specifications and performance.

And thus we have the Smith & Wesson Model 68 revolver. As what was explained to me many decades ago, some of the flakes that invaded Sacramento when Governor Moonbeam was first elected thought that if the CHP had to shoot someone with a .357 Magnum, it would hurt too much. So the CHP had to put aside their .357 Magnums and use the Model 68 chambered in .38 Special, otherwise known as The Governor Moonbeam Highway Patrol Special.

Attached Images

	S&W 68 - CHP-1.jpg (30.6 KB, 19 views)
	S&W 68 - CHP-2.jpg (47.1 KB, 17 views)

You best check that again. There is no way S&W or any gun company would mark a revolver for .38 Special +P+ because there is no such cartridge designation from SAAMI or even CIP for that matter. The lawyers for the gun company would never approve of such a careless and dangerous designation.

According to SAAMI there are only 4 +P cartridges and no +P+ cartridges at all. Check for yourself...
SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Actually, the "best check that again" is in your direction. At least some of the early 640-0 were marked "TESTED FOR +P+" next to the cylinder stop. I have held one in my hands and plenty of images available on-line. Take a look at #18 of the endnotes at the below link...

All About The .38 Special +P and .38 Special +P+ – RevolverGuy.Com