Extremely disappointed in the leaked announcement of 360 Buckhammer. This is jointly developed by Remington and Henry, who will produce lever guns in the *new* chambering.

It should have been straight-wall, not tapered. Should have been in 10mm/.40 caliber, not 35. In a world where 350 legend, 450 bushmaster, and 454 Casull already exist, this was their opportunity.

Well, it’s Remington. Did any of their proprietary cartridges take off?

7mm Remington Magnum, 222 Remington, 223 Remington. I'm sure that if I thought about it I could come up with others.

I just finished Boddington's article in Guns & Ammo so I'm not sure how it could have been "leaked". Of course this is a niche round aimed at the places where you have to use a straight walled case for hunting that is not over 1.8". It has ballistics comparable to the 35 Remington (There's another proprietary cartridge still in use.). This is a 200 yard and under deer, black bear and hog cartridge. In the Henry rifle, it will be a very good hunting cartridge. Not everyone wants to deer hunt with an AR. Of course it is not going to appeal to the tacticool or 1000 yard shooters but, believe it or not, those aren't the only shooting games being played these days. I wouldn't be surprised if you see a Marlin in this caliber as I think this round will be a little more adaptable to a lever gun than the 350 Legend.

Did you even read? Did I say anything about ARs being the end all be all?

I did mention the 350 legend, and, its existence does mean that the 360 will fail. I also mentioned the 454 Casull, which is already chambered in at least 2 more lever guns than the 360.

The 360 does nothing a 357 Max doesn't already do, and just as well, in a lever gun and has an uphill battle taking market share from the first-mover 350 legend. Just being a rimmed 350 legend ain't enough.

It is for these reasons and many more that I said the new cartridge should have been in 40 caliber. It should still be rimmed. It should still be designed around a lever gun.

.25-06 Remington and, drum roll, .44 Remington Magnum. Easy to forget that Remington legitimized wildcat ctg or developed these two as their names have become generic.

Yeah, my bad. I was thinking about the magnum rifle cartridges of the last 20 years or so. The “RUM”s etc.

I mentioned the AR, not you. That's because it is the platform that the 350 Legend and the 450 Bushmaster are designed around. Both of those cartridges are based off of existing cartridges, the 223 Remington and the 284 Winchester. The Buckhammer is based off of the 30-30. I'm sure that's because they were trying to get it to work in that Henry. The reason they base one cartridge off of another existing one is simple manufacturing economics. I'm not sure what existing cartridge you could use to make a rimmed, straight walled 10mm. Especially a rimmed cartridge that wouldn't end up with a taper. I suppose you could elongate a 10mm pistol cartridge to 1.8" and end up with what you are talking about but you still have a rimless cartridge, which is problematic with a lever gun. It doesn't really matter because it's more about trying to comply with a regulation than create the next big hunting cartridge. There isn't much they can come up with that isn't already being done by some other round. It's just about getting it to fit in that regulatory envelope and work in a lever gun. I also don't know what it's place in the market will be. It could die on the vine or it might take off. I do know that Henry is a good gun company so it will depend on how many hunters want to hunt with their gun.

The 30-30.

That's why I said that the 360 should have been a 40 caliber.

The 10mm is based off of the 30 Remington (one of Remington's few failures amongst many many successful cartridges). The 30 Remington was an attempt at a rimmless 30-30. It uses the same load data and everything. They have the same body size. That is why the 30-30, 30 Remington, 6.8 SPC, 224 Valkyrie, and 10mm all have the same base diameter.

The 30-30 is about .020 thicker at the web than the 30 Rem. so in order to get to 10mm at the mouth, you are going to have a tapered case. Plus the 30 Rem is rimless so it would be more difficult to adapt anything made from it to a lever gun, as it is difficult to get the headspace right. Ballistically, there is very little difference between the 30 Rem and the 30 WCF. Of course the 30-30 was made for a lever gun and the 30 Rem was for an auto loader. Remington made about 80000 Model 8's but the hunting market wasn't ready for semi-autos. They did find some popularity with the police.

Just to add some fun to the conversation. When asked what Remington named cartridge "took off". The 7 mm magnum, 25/06, and 22-250 are not Remington's inventions. These cartridges had been around for decades. Remington did make them legit by making factory ammo for them, now they did, from the ground up, design the great 222 Remington.

Nah, the 30-30 and 30 Remington are .422" and .421" nominal diameter at the base.

The entire family of 30-30 brass (38-55, 375 win, 225 win, etc) have nominal base diameters of 0.420-0.422". 10mm nominal base diameter is 0.425". Empirically, my stock of 30-30 have base diameters of 0.418"-0.422" and my stock of 10mm have base diameters of 0.419"-0.423" as measured using my micrometer.

A straight-wall non-tapered 30-30 would be 10mm/.40 caliber.

So how do we get a straight walled, rimless cartridge to headspace in a rear locking lever gun?

Don't feel bad.

There are a lots of times the "BIG" companies puts their heads together for a brand new "Got to have it" load
and they fall on their face.
It's part of the game, to increase their sales and ammo income.

Better dieing a quick death than bleeding for years to end in missery.

This is the first I’ve heard of it, but I’m glad. Choices are good, and the market will decide its fate.

Smart of them to use .357/.358 bullets. Makes more sense than the .350 and its .355 bullets.

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I had a Marlin 30-30 with an octagon barrel recut to 405 JESS, which is a 444 trimmed to 2.050" and tapered for .412" bullets. It will push 300 grain JSP Hornadys (they're .411") to 1900 to 1950 fps without straining anything, lead GC to over 2000 fps. This cartridge, except cut for .410" bullets, would be the cat's meow. Trimmed to 1.8" it would still be a dandy.

We don't.

We use the shortened 30-30 case and, instead of necking up to 35 caliber, we neck up to 10mm/.40 caliber. Thus, we have a rimmed, straight-wall cartridge in 10mm/.40 caliber.

Too true..

Totally agree on the .357/.358 being better for bullet selection. If they wanted to go that direction, wish they would have gone 357 maximum instead.

What bullets would go in that cartridge?

According to the limited data I saw on the internet the new 360 will drive a 200 grain bullet to about 2100. At that speed most expanding bullets meant for 10mm handguns would come apart. Every state I have lived in requires expanding bullets for hunting and the only heavier bullets I have seen in 10mm are cast. Bullets meant for 404 and 416 rifles are designed for water buffalo, not deer, and would probably not expand well at lower velocities.

Being a bullet maker Remington can make any type of bullet they want. But this is a cartridge meant to fill a very particular and narrow niche market, hunting in states that require a straight case. Even if they wanted a 10mm version they probably decided designing a 10mm bullet that performed well at rifle velocities wouldn't be worth the trouble.

If changing hunting regulations eliminate the niche this cartridge is designed for demand for the ammo would dry up. At least with the 358 bullets reloaders could find something that works in any 360 Buckhammer rifles they have. With 10mm they could use handgun bullets for plinking but 10mm rifle bullets would be scarce.

I've successfully used the 200gr XTP 10mm bullets from Hornady at velocities in excess of 2100 fps.

Hornady uses these same bullets in its .45 caliber sabots for muzzleloaders (see here)

Moreover, various other muzzleloader sabot use .400 caliber projectiles in a variety of weights (see here another from Hornady using their SST bullets)


Every state in which I've lived that has had a similar restriction has defined "non-expanding bullets" as FMJ. Thus, hard cast has been treated no differently than bullets which only partially expose their lead, like JSP.


There are plenty of JSP, JHP, hard-cast and generally non-FMJ 10mm bullets available.



Noted, but we are talking about necking up to 10mm/.40 caliber, which 404 and 416 are not.


Your first point here is an important one: Remington is not your average hand-loader. Even if there were not already appropriate or readily adaptable 10mm bullets on the market, like Winchester had to with the 350 legend, manufacturing rifle-ready 10mm bullets would be trivial.

Your second point is speculative.

This is not a reason to effectively make it even more narrow and niche by putting it in a segment already occupied by two cartridges (350 legend and 357 maximum). Indeed, it is all the more reason to use a 10mm/40 caliber projectile and place it in a segment where there is no competition.

See above re: viable 10mm bullets at the moderate velocities advertised for the 360. Also, if you'll allow me to speculate a bit, I don't believe Remington takes into consideration the handloading opportunities to early adopters in the event the 360 proves a failure.

I think this overlooks a big reason why they did this the way they did. The round was designed specifically to be used in a lever action rifle. The reason that a tapered case is preferred is to take advantage of the funnel effect getting the round from the elevator into the chamber. Maybe they figure that giving that up to go to 10mm wouldn't be worth any perceived change in hunting performance. A 35 caliber 200 grain bullet vs. a 40 caliber 200 grain bullet in actual field use would be marginal at best. Maybe they just picked that caliber out of a hat.

Let me add to this - almost any action that will accommodate a 25-35, 30-30, 32 Special, 38-55, or 375 Win will also accommodate a 'taperable' but less common 444 Remington.

There's not much taper on a 444 Marlin for sure. That may be why it's like shucking rocks working them in and out of an 1895. It is a good hunting cartridge for what it is though. It is too long to comply with the regulations in those straight walled places otherwise I think it might be a good choice.

Yawn, another cartridge that will fall into obscurity.

Is Remington still around? They have had a rough decade.

Remington partnering with Henry is very amusing considering how Remington used to own Marlin and tried to run it into the ground.
What I see from another forum post is that the initial chambering will be a 200gr bullet at 2100fps. Somewhat underwhelming. Remington doesn't list a 200gr 357 bullet so it's tough to draw conclusions. Looking at the Hornady 200gr FTX (which is probably a better bullet than whatever Remington will offer), we get a BC of 0.300 which isn't as bad as you might think. With a 100 yard zero that's a 4.4" drop at 200 yards, 10" at 300 yards. 1959ft/lbs at the muzzle, 1515 at 100 yards, 1161 at 200 yards, 886ft/lbs at 300 yards (oof).
The bullet in the pic looks like a Core-Lokt RN, which means the factory ballistics might be a lot worse than what I calculated for the FTX.
Personally, I am not in the market.

Attached Images

360 Buckhammer.jpg (65.8 KB, 29 views)

To the right bunch of guys, this is gonna be an awesome cartridge.
I'm talking about handloaders and cast bullet shooters!
It's based off the 30-30 case, so brass will be cheap and plentiful. Just reform your own. The bullet size, intended bullet weight range, and velocity is perfect for cast bullets.
The straight tapered case is reminiscent of the 38-55 and 45-70, to name a couple, so that's a plus for several reasons.

I bet a few guys will never even put a round of jacketed or factory ammo through theirs! Just buy a new set of dies, reform some 30-30 brass, and rummage through your mold collection to find a nice .358" cast bullet in the 180-225 gr range.
Skip the $2.00-a-shot store bought ammo!

Lets just hope the barrels and chambers are properly made, with the right depth of cut for the lands, the right rifling twist, and sufficient throat taper to accomodate different cast bullet nose profiles.

Would a shortened 405 Win or a shortened, slightly tapered 444 Marlin work for this desired compliant 40 cal?

The 405 JESS is the 444 case shortened to 2.050" and tapered to 405 Winchester bullet diameter.

im glad they experimented with the 22 short and came up with the long rifle, that smokeless powder is working out well for me also. Im sure there were those at the time that said it was unnecessary.

"It should have been straight-wall, not tapered. Should have been in 10mm/.40 caliber, not 35."

You mean like the .400 legend? SAAMI approved it Jan. 15.

Here's the link: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2023-01-30.pdf or New SAAMI Accepted Cartridge: 400 Legend !? -The Firearm Blog

Kepp in mind, Remington is no longer Remington. You can't compare what now passes for Remington with the great company that brought us (just to name a few) the 7mm Remington Magnum, the . 44 Remington Magnum, and let's cut the list at the Model 1100. We could go on and on and on talking about that Remington.

Yup! Thanks, for this!

As an aside with all this talk about 350 and 400 Legend... You want to know what would have made those cartridges better? Belted cases.

Um, why. This is their reasoning for why you should get one.

360 Buckhammer is straight up better than other straight wall cartridges. The ultimate deer hunting straight wall cartridge, 360 BHMR is accurate and deadly out to 200 yards and optimized for lever action rifles. Easy to shoot with energy, velocity and drop similar to 30-30 Win, 360 Buckhammer is the best hunting cartridge when you want to use a lever action rifle.

Not sure I understand why you are re-inventing the wheel and then comparing yourself to the previous wheel. Henry has enough going on that they don't really need to come up with a new cartridge.

All these new cartridges are making me scratch my head. Then again, I bought a 6ARC. I like it but, not sure I got anything spectacular. Still working up a good load for hunting. Oh-well.

The why is pretty clear - in several states the .360 is legal for deer hunting and the .30/30 isn’t.

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Should have called it the 36 Creedmore or 8mm manbun. Then it would have taken off. Just another caliber that there is no use for. Just like the Win short mags. Glad I didn’t buy one of those. If they were gonna make a straight wall for deer hunters figure out a cartridge that gives me more range.

And the 7mm-08...........Lots of their inovation cartridges out there......If you look........Like the famous 35 REM.

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And the unquestioned best big game cartridge in North America - the 35 Whelen.

As far as all these short weak new northern deer cartridges....I ain't gonna buy or use any of them.

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I agree.
As far as I know more deer have been taken with the old 30-30 than any other cartridge.

Many younger hunters today think they need a 300 Win Mag to kill deer. When did deer grow a hide of armor?

Back in the early 1900's if my grandfather's generation used the 30-30, the 32 Winchester Special and sometimes even the 25-35 for deer and somehow managed to put meat on the table every time. Many of those hunters thought a 30 Cal was too big a cartridge for deer.

My favorite deer gun here in the Northeast of PA is still the 30-30 levergun. That works just fine for me but nowadays I have to use a 4X power scope to see them well! No need for anything else where most shots are under 80 yards and in heavy wooded areas. (I usually use a 170gr bullet because of the many twigs which can deflect lighter bullets)

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It will be interesting to see what the trigger is like on this new effort. I liked everything about Henry's other deer offerings except the 9 lb. triggers.

Many would not consider the .30 Remington to be in any way a failure. The cartridge had a lengthly production run, well over 70 years, and a large number of very popular Remington Models 8, 81, 14, 141, and a few other rifles such as the Remington Model 30 bolt action, were chambered for it. Even the FBI and many other LE agencies and prisons used such rifles in .30 Remington prior to the 1960s. The main reason for the .30 Remington was to provide an alternative cartridge choice for those who liked the .30-30 but preferred using semi-auto or pump action rifles instead of lever action, and in that role it succeeded. For those who may not be familiar with it, the .30 Remington cartridge is just a rimless version of the .30-30 Win, but with some minor dimensional differences. Ballistics are the same.

Even though it is no longer commercially loaded (at least I think it is not), .30 Remington brass can still be found occasionally, and, if you have access to a lathe, it is not difficult to convert .30-30 cases to .30 Remington. It can even be reloaded using .30-30 dies.

I agree. I used to say a 30-06 would kill anything I can drag out of the woods. As it turns out, it will kill things considerably larger than I can drag out of the woods, as the deer that I shot in 2015 proved! I killed that deer, and it darn near killed me!

300 mag? Everyone knows a 7mm mag is all you need. As long as you have exploding polymer tipped bullets…….. I actually do use some long range calibers sometimes. 7mag, 270 and such. But I use it for stands that might produce a 300 yd shot. Like a clear cut or utility ROW. It’s funny that as restrictive as NY is when it comes to firearms they allow rifles in most counties for deer and I think every county for predators. The bag limits here are pretty generous as well. Not what many of you would think about such a blue state.

What states are those? I think cowboys of yesteryear would completely disagree. In Colorado we have a minimum cartridge, 6MM and I think 80 or 90 grain bullet. I cannot understand what the 30-30 is lacking that couldn't take anything in North America with the right load.

99% of the time, using anything more powerful than the .30-‘06 represents wasted energy. At least in the lower 48.

It’s not about caliber. Many Midwest states only allow straight wall cartridges. Presumably because of flat terrain. Even a 350 legend is an upgrade over a shotgun and slug. It also produces follow up shots unlike a muzzleloader. There’s definitely a market for it.

Not sure I understand the straight walled cartridge thing. What states are these? Just looking for 1 state that doesn't allow a 30-30.

Does that preclude all of the other necked cartridges like 270, 30-06, 308, 300 WM, 7mm Mag and all of the many, many other necked cartridge. What you are saying doesn't make sense.

For over half my life, Iowa was shotgun slug only for deer. At the time, most farms were small and many farmsteads dotted the land. For years, hunters lobbied for rifles, and the compromise was straight wall cartridge only. This ruled out most rifle cartridges, but was better than nothing.