I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes because of advancements in bullet designed has improved the 9mms performance to nearly .40 levels.
Why haven’t .40 caliber bullets been designed along the same lines?

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Who are those guys?

The technology and design is there…but with sales on a downhill slope the R&D funding plus manufacturing expenses argue against it. Bottom line…why spend the investment with too little return on that investment expected.

The 9mm is being rediscovered by police (it mostly was beaten out by the 40 from the early '90s) because it's cheaper to train with (both ammo cost and mild report/recoil). The 9mm miracle bullet nonsense is intended for marketing.

I have a few boxes of 2022 'LE Only' Hornady Critical Duty #90225. It is pretty much indistinguishable in terminal performance on jackrabbits and coyotes from the Super WhizBang JHPs of the past 30 years, with the cool-looking red ball in the hollow point notwithstanding.

For lots of folks. Recoil wise it is for me.

Funny, a gun shop owner friend of mine showed me a mint 1006 the other day, adopted by the FBI way back, who then switched to the .40 because the 10mm was too much of a beast.

Now they are back to the 9mm, like the rest of the world.

You give me a .40 I'm selling it as fast as I can.

Send it my way!

100% my experience as well.

I was in the FBI when the .40 was adopted and I was there for the return of the 9mm. I was a firearms instructor as an additional duty and saw the internal manuevering as well.

9mm is cheaper. Each agent fires about a 1000 rounds per year. Quarterly quals, which include drills and practice runs. 12,000 agents times 1000 is easy even for me - 12 million rounds a year. Now add in Quantico where new agents shoot about 10k rounds in the academy and SWAT and HRT go through ammo like its air and pretty soon you’re up to a fair amount of munitions. Even a small savings per box adds up, and even then the powers that be want to spend that ammo budget on other stuff.

Its the same at other departments. 9mm is cheaper, usually works fine, is easier on guns, and kicks less.

I worked a lot of .40 shootings - mostly by tribal police officers. It always worked great. It still does.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Commonly held misconception.

The FBI never issued full-power 10mm. The gun guys started with the 10mm cartridge and a 180 bullet and shot it into gel at increasing velocities until it did what they wanted. That was 950 fps.

As much as the internet loves the idea of 1076s (not 1006s) crashing to the ground while agents shook their dainty wrists at the awesome recoil, it just never happened.

Someone later realized the same result (180/950) could be had in a round that fit into 9mm sized guns and the .40 was born. By then the 1076 had been recalled for mechanical reasons and we went to the .40 S&W.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Don't be screwing with internet 'everyone knows' lore.

As an aside, I had an issued 10mm right up until I retired. A really fun one.

Attached Images

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Rule of law, not a man.

When I first attended FLETC in the late '80s we were told by a firearms instructor there (believe it or don't)...that the reason the FBI had picked the 10mm following the Miami Massacre was due to that they had already denigrated the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm previously and couldn't be seen as eating their words. I'm not saying that's true or false...just what we were told.

I will say that people and other law enforcement agencies put a lot of faith and credence to the FBI's choice of ammunition. Not to say that it's misplaced but the FBI has a specific set of needs and criteria they've decided on when looking for ammunition...which may or may not be relevant to the needs and requirements of others.

It's quite believable given that US government agencies at all levels have a rabid hatred of admitting mistakes and going back on previous decisions. It threatens their illusion of control.

Now, for doing U-turns on large expensive projects and doing it in the public eye, you have to go to the UK. Look up the debacle of the Queen Elizabeth class "aircraft carriers". You'll soon see why I put it in quotes.

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Release the Kraken

I guess I misread the number on the box. If I remember correctly, the Virginia State Police also adopted the 10mm FBI pistol, only to also give it up.

In the immediate aftermath of the 4/11/86 shootout the Bureau approved .45 pistols (645s) and 185 grain Silvertips, which were later replaced with 230 grain Hydra Shoks. 9mm ammo changed from 115 grain Silvertips to 147 grain JHPs. I came in in 1991 and was issued a 226 and 147 grain Hydra Shoks. By then the 4506 and 4516 were approved, as well as the Sig P220. I bought a 220 on my Dad’s FFL, qualified, gave back the 226, and carried the 220, pictured above, for 25 years.

The 10mm was seen as a compromise between two factions at the FTU - 9mm vs .45 ACP.

There was once an extensive Privately Owned Weapon (POW) list of guns you could buy and carry. At one time I carried the oldest gun on active duty in the Bureau - non-Registered Magnum 61115, born in 1940.

The list was pared down over the years, and its a Glock World in the Bu now.

Anyway, the .45 has a long history in the Bu, from the one Charles Winstead borrowed from the Chicago office to put down Dillinger to the 1911s used by HRT and SWAT until recently. I retired in 6/2016, and word was already out that no more .45s would be approved or grandfathered in after the end if the year.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. .40s are great.

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Rule of law, not a man.

This conversation can evolve in many ways. Many of us have had most every facet of this conversation dozens of times over a couple decades or more.

Not sure I have ever heard of button shoes but if you are asking if the .40 is going to be extinct... then don't lose sleep because this won't happen in your lifetime.

There are perfectly great reasons to buy, own and shoot .40cal handguns, we could argue that some of those reasons are less so now than they were in the mid-1990's but with many dozens of cartridges in existence, the .40cal is still in the top-10 in use.

I have a couple of phenomenal handguns chambered for this round, I shoot and enjoy them regularly and I'll be happy to add others if I find what I like for a price that works.

Hold on, lets slow down here. You are telling me button shoes are not in style anymore?....

Larry

Well, the NMSP gave up their 357 Sigs for 9mm - it was about ammo & training costs.

I have a couple of .40's, a Glock 23 and a S&W 4013. I've had a lot of fun shooting both of them.

The .40 is what it is, there are certainly better calibers and there are certainly worse ones...

It's one of the calibers I keep a large amount of on hand. Matter of fact the pricing on this round is really down right now...may be time to add to the storage! 🙂

As it usually is, given time, someone will discover it as the new magic bullet once again...

I like .40 S&W, never had any problems shooting it, and it hits harder than any 9mm except .357 Sig, and that one only because it's being fired out of a .40 case.

Whoa...who are you? Buster Brown?

I had just read that when police started looking at shooting data, terminal ballistic data showed an average of 2 shots in the thoracic area for the 9mm, the .40 and the.45.

Since there was no apparent difference in lethality, it was hard to justify the added expense and reduced capacity that you get with the .40 and .45.

I would agree that bullet design added to evening out the 9mm’s performance.

It makes me wonder if the .40 S&W will see a slight resurgence due to the popularity of the 10mm (?).

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otis

I like .40 s&w. I've been thinking of adding a couple more pistols in that caliber as well as more ammo when the price comes down a bit.

My favorite semi in .40 is a 1st generation M&P. It's a Pro Series with night sights that I changed the trigger to an Apex FSS. It used to be my carry gun and I wouldn't have any problem carrying it again.

My favorite .40 shooting was at an unnamed Indian reservation in the wild west. A drunk guy with a knife was banging on his sweetie’s door demanding some private time. Instead he got “Donna”, a 20 year veteran of the tribal PD. Fellas, there is no tougher creature on earth than a middle-aged female tribal cop.

She says drop it, he throws the knife (which actually sticks in the toe of her boot), then immediately realizes the error of his ways and turns just as Donna lets fly 180 grains of goodness. The bullet hits him in his right manboob, exits and draws a red line to the left manboob, perforates that one, and sails merrily on its way. He drops like a rock, dead. He thinks. Donna cuffs him and calls the ambo. He basically got four sets of a couple stitches each and a ride to jail.

She was a hoot. She was having a smoke behind the wheel of her tribal rig when I got there. It was raining a little but her window was down as a nod to the no smoking policy. I asked how she was doing and she tossed out the butt and rolled up the window while she was looking at me. Tough old gal.

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Rule of law, not a man.

One of the nicest thing about a M&P 40 is the ability to shoot 357 SIG with just a barrel change, and to shoot 9mm with just a barrel & magazine change...

And that goes for the M&P 40C as well!

Cheers!

P.S. The 40 S&W is alive and doing well! It can be loaded (& reloaded) with effective JHPs from 135 through 200gr depending upon the intended use. One is seldom undergunned with 40 S&Ws on board.

Was under impression that .40 s&w and 45 acp bullets have been designed along the same lines? To me this means these two calibers will always have the size advantage over 9mm (excepting the size advantage for cc)

The initial reason i purchased a .40 was the all the free brass lying around, which just couldn't be passed up. Took a long time till a glock was purchased, and it was a G19. Have taken to pocket carry in winter and wanted something with more umph than the G19, but with similar capacity. So searched for and got 4th gen G23. Glad i did.

The ballistic and penetration tests are useful comparison devices, but imo they do not tell you what energy the bullet is carrying at certain distances through the gel. Nationwide standards seem to be based on being suitable nationwide, but am more concerned with suitability for NW Wi. So when warm weather is over and with it carrying a 1911 45 acp on a belt, a G23 goes into the front pocket.

I wonder why machine bolts come in 3/8 and 7/16 (English) and 8mm and 10mm (metric)? Could it be the larger diameter makes some kind of actual difference? Where's an engineer (not the train-driver) when you need one?

Read that another driver in the switch to 9mm was it being more easily controlled by the increasing number of women who were entering law enforcement.

lets face the fact that anyone who shoots a 40 can shoot a 9mm better.
any gun with less recoil is easier to shoot.
If cadets can't qualify with the 40 they MIGHT be able to pass with the 9.

Since someone brought up the S&W 1000 series........I was working for an entity located about half way between Quantico and Richmond. So, when the FBI & VSP went 10 mm the fearless leaders (retired VSP) did the me too thing. Oddly, when the S&W rep visited he strongly suggested we not jump on the 1076. Per him, the FBI was entranced by the Sig decocking system and pretty much told S&W that if they wanted the contract, they'd find a way to do it. We went with the 1006 with full power ammo and it served us well (~1992-2006) until we couldn't get ammo for it. Any ammo, we'd had to go to the FBI spec stuff several years previous.

Despite the N frame like reach to trigger, everyone's scores improved even with the full power ammo. [previous side arm the 681 & Federal .357 125 gr Magnum-the 10 had less recoil] Even our petite types did quite well including one nicknamed "the garden gnome".

When I belonged to IALEFI, the head trainer for a large LLEA near DC got talked into going from 9 to .40 when they bought new pistols. He went along and then later repeated vented about falling qual scores and recoil injury claims. The latter sounds like malarkey to me, but line of duty stuff was apparently common.

Somewhere I think I've still get a copy of an internal FBI memo that told the folks still inclined to gripe about ammo/service pistol issues that whatever the question, the 10 mm was THE ANSWER! Some parts of it were unintentionally funny-if you didn't work there.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it as many necessary...

.40 S&W will not receive any enhancements because unlike 9mm Luger, it was designed to meet FBI Specifications. 9mm was improved because previously, it couldn't consistently meet FBI Specifications.

.40 S&W doesn't need any improvements, it's already performing exactly as it sas designed to and has earned its stripes as a capable duty cartridge.
However, 9mm Luger is cheaper, softer recoiling, and with modern propellants/bullet designs, meets FBI Specifications, thus making it a more attractive option for Law Enforcement Agencies.

That being said, .40 S&W is a more powerful cartridge, and when tested outside of the FBI's Ballistics Gel Tests, has some advantages such as superior straight-line hard barrier penetration and greater damage to bones, but said advantages are irrelevant to the majority of Law Enforcement Agencies compared to the cost savings and ease of training offered by 9mm.

Personally, I still carry .40 S&W and will continue to do so because I prefer it over 9mm, especially since two-legged threats aren't the only ones in my area, and I was able to save a lot of money years back by purchasing cheap .40s over 9s, so I'm not about to spend more money on 9mm Pistols when I already carry a more powerful firearm which I have no difficulty handling.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

How many people have asked the same question on this site and others about the 45. The big 3 will be around as long as they keep making them in those calibers. I have carried all of them as well as 357mag in a wheel gun. All work as well as the jerk behind the trigger. I won't go as far as to say that the caliber doesn't matter but, more important is Location, Location, Location.

If they are designing a new 9mm, it won't be that much of a stretch to carry that over to the 40 and 45 as well as the 38/357 and more.

Why these questions are asked is the real question. Just post fodder I guess.

Develop good shooting skills and practice regularly and an informal cartridge treatise like this one will become much less important.

My completely unscientific take on calibers is that...excepting situations like an assailant high on dope where he feels nothing or wearing body armor...double- or triple-tapping him center mass will more than likely stop the assault...regardess of whether it's a .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm or .45. I believe it's peripheral hits rather than center mass will be where the larger bore calibers will make a difference...they will hurt more.

Now I'm going down the rabbit hole of momentum theory vs. velocity theory here. Getting hit by any of the above will hurt and stop someone...and any of the above can also not stop someone. Every situation is different...every person is different in how they absorb bullets and do or don't keep going.

The best you can do is put the rounds where they count the most...assess and reengage if necessary. One thing we've been taught that in the real world...not controlled lab situations...is that you can do everything right and it can still turn to feces on you and you can still die.

We’ve seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.

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Who are those guys?

That's easy - larger calibers do not need designer bullets to be effective. If there was some significant need or market, a manufacturer would fill it. At a profit.

A law of physics that's still valid..."Big Bullets Make Things Move!"

Any improvements in bullet technology or powder would apply across the spectrum.

The bean-counters are the main reason for the move to 9mm for agencies.

I believe today's ammo is maybe 5% more effective that what I learned to shoot with in the early 1950s.

It is all marketing, rationalization, and justification. Physics says bigger is better and faster is better.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

The 9mm Luger cartridge was born roughly EIGHTY FIVE YEARS before the .40 S&W was born.

It only makes good sense that modern bullet (and propellant) technology found it's way to the 9mm around the time the .40 S&W cartridge actually hit the scene.

Of course they have. Any engineering improvements to 9mm have been applied to 40 and 45 as well. 9mm only approaches 40s&w performance in +P+ loadings, and that isn't a SAAMI spec.

They have. The FBI’s current issue 9mm is the Critical Defense 135 grain +P. There is also a Critical Defense .40 with a 175 grain bullet of the same design.

The issue is cost, not bullet performance.

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Rule of law, not a man.

'Critical Defense' my aching posterior. Not impressed. Just like Win +P 115 grain JHP, Federal 147 grain Hydrashock, etc. Grumble, grumble, grumble...shuffles to fridge for an adult beverage. And a Geritol.

That was an interesting thread,
I have two SW PC shorty 40's and a BHP in 40.
They don't get shot much because I have tons of cheap 9mm fmj , the 40 was interesting alternative back in the day but you do sacrifice capacity (8 vs 12 iirc?) It's been a while since I've shot .40 SW.

On a side note IIRC the original necked down .30 Luger round was not quite up to the task so they simply removed the neck and the 9mm Luger was born.

I would not belittle the 30 Luger. The Swiss used it for a long time and it is one of my favorites. The German military wanted a larger caliber, they did not believe in the higher velocity smaller diameter round. You need to shoot a 30 Luger to appreciate its qualities.

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Kind regards, Heinz

how close are they to the new 30 Super Carry?

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NRA RSO

The 30 Luger has a 93 gr bullet at 1200 fps for 304 ft ponds of energy. Just over 34,000 PSI pressure

The 30 Super carry has 1250 fps with a 100 grain bullet for 347 ft pounds of energy. Just over 54,000 PSI pressure
out of a 4" barrel

I suspect the Luger data is a 4 1/2" (120 cm) barrel

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Kind regards, Heinz

Had a .30 luger years ago, pricey ammo, sold it and bought one in 9mm...
Iirc the problem was overpenetration and tiny bullet, on the other hand had a broomhandle in .30 Mauser (totally different round) was told by someone.... oh u can shoot the cheap copper washed 7.62x25 Tokarov ammo in it.....oh no...big muzzle flash, that stuff was hot n made to cycle PPSH bolts in full auto.

ok.. just like 9mm, 40S&W is better now too...
end of discussion...

Per Sig220.45

"They have. The FBI’s current issue 9mm is the Critical Defense 135 grain +P. There is also a Critical Defense .40 with a 175 grain bullet of the same design".

Question: Is it "Critical Defense" or "Critical Duty" ? . Realize Hornady likes to throw 'Critical' around but seemed to think that the "Duty" round was more tailored to LE. ??

My bad, you’re right. Its Critical Duty. Thanks!

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Rule of law, not a man.

It's not really the caliber but the pistol grip design that doesn't work for many women or men with small or medium sized hands.

The politicos that make the decisions on what the department will carry fail to recognize that one size does not fit all.

I think that the agencies just wanted new firearms.

Easier to get them if the caliber is somehow deemed inferior in some way. Sometimes it is inferior stopping power, and sometimes it's shooting cost , and sometimes it's some other trumped up reason. But the end result is that new guns are ordered and someone makes a bundle off the contract {possibly someone involved or their Brother in Law etc}

If the caliber is to blame, then there won't be any rebuilt , loose guns first issued many many years ago re-issued. Isn't it fun, everyone gets new and someone has a windfall

It has been done this way for years.[