I heard that I should use the same grain ammo for target practice training as I do for my self defense carry ammo.

I was thinking of purchasing Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection 9mm Luger +P ammo for my M&P Shield 9mm handgun, to use as my self defense ammo.

It's 124 grain but say's it has less recoil, so do you think I can have the same recoil feel if I used 115 grain FMJ for target practice or should I get 124 grain ammo as well for target practice?

Here is the description:
At one time, packing a compact handgun meant sacrificing performance and ammunition selection. Speer® Gold Dot® Short Barrel® ammunition has changed that. It is designed to work in barrels as short as 1.9 inches while producing less felt recoil and achieving reliable expansion and penetration.

Muzzle Velocity 1150

Buy Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection for USD 36.99 | Speer

PS I was thinking of going down to 115 grain ammo for self defense carry, because the other 124 grain ammo I've been using has a lot of recoil which makes it hard to get shots on target I noticed. But then I stumbled across this Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection 9mm Luger +P ammo which looks good.

If you are focused on recoil impulse when training, you are focused on the wrong thing.

I don't see any benefit in using the same weight bullet in practice, within reason. I think the difference between 115gr and 124gr in 9mm is pretty marginal. And as Mike mentioned, don't concentrate on the recoil impulse during practice because in a self defense situation you're not going to notice the recoil impulse.

Generally I like the Speer Short Barrel ammo. It's well designed and ballistics gel testing looks very promising.

The Speer 9mm +P 124 gr GDHP Short Barrel is all I carry in my smallest 9 - a Kahr PM9. Shoots to POA and very reliable.
For the training and drills you should be doing to keep your hand in for CC, any target grade 115 or 124 gr. will not make any real difference.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

The difference between 115 and 147-gr 9mm is noticeable to me if I shoot my pistols from a rest at around 20 yds. Maybe a few inches different.
Anything less than that, off-hand, and I'm not really noticing.
Pretty much the same with recoil. If you're feeling the difference, you may be focusing on it too much.

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Because of the metric system?

Have not noticed much of a difference in semi autos out to 25 yds. In revolvers there can be a very noticable change in poi and recoil.

I had the impression that the various Speer short barrel loads used different bullets from those used in standard loadings.

Now, the claimed (from what barrel length?) 1150 f/s is slower than what one generally sees from +P 9 mm. NATO spec ball is somewhere over 1200 f/s for the same bullet weight.

As others have mentioned there really isn't all that much difference in recoil between the various 9 mm loads. But, that can vary between product lines. I personally find Blazer aluminum case 9 mm to be loaded more stoutly than the Blazer Brass 124 gr. It sounds like you need more practice and some good instruction might help. You've gotta get used to the idea that the guns gonna recoil no matter what you've loaded it with and learn to deal with it.

The Speer short barrel +P ammo is only needed for a 3" barrel 9mm pistol
in order to get the correct fps for the bullet to work correctly.

The "Standard" load will work in barrels that are 4" long, with enough fps
for the bullet to work correctly.

As for practice ammo, any 115 or 124 cheap ammo is the way to go,
which lets you practice more, without spending more money, than needed
to improve your skills.

A instructor or watching training films will teach you "Good" habits
which can be helpful.

Try a couple different varieties and see which one shoots the best or matches whatever amount of recoil you are going for.

115 grain bullets won’t necessarily have more or less recoil than 124 grain bullets. It’s all a function of what powder and how much is used to achieve whatever the velocity they are getting. And comparing velocities on boxes of ammo doesn’t necessarily mean anything unless the different manufacturers are using the exact same testing platform.

I believe they all use the same bullet but have different loadings for burn rates. A Speer technician told me once that the Gold Dot in all calibers is designed to expand at 750fps and above.

Would you believe a 38 special, 125gr , six pedal, over 836fps ??

If just practicing combat style shooting on a silhouette target and at a relatively close distance, grain weight would only slightly change POI. If bullseye shooting at 50 feet, I always like to use the same grain weight bullet as I do find lighter bullets usually print low.

Speer doesn't have a 125gr, but they sell a 135gr Short Barrel .38 Spl. Based on the test HERE by Lucky Gunner, it looks like expansion is haphazard.

There is not a huge difference between recoil or where the bullet will impact the target at distances of 25 yards or less when considering 115 and 124 grain 9mm ammo. I have found that at least some 115 grain ammo is less accurate than 124 grain ammo, I'm thinking that the shorter bearing surface of the 115 grain round nose (FMJ) negatively impacts accuracy.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

The short barrel magic is in the powder, not the bullet.

Please look up Speer's 38 Cal, 125gr JHP box #4012.

Just because it is not listed on the Luckygunner.com site test, does not mean that it is not made.

Ammo to go has 125 Gold dots.

Those are bullets. We're talking about loaded ammo in this thread. Speer only loads the 135gr GD in ammo.

Recoil is simply a function of bullet weight and bullet speed.

Marketers try to say things like "less recoil" but the only way to change recoil is by changing the weight or speed of the projectile, or the weight of the firearm.

I do know that the 45 caliber 230gr'ers for the Short Barrel & the standard GDHP do physically differ, their stated sectional density is the same, ballistic coefficient different, and the load data is exactly the same...

I would opine it is really a bullet design function related to expansion velocity: the SBs shoot great in my 45 Colt, BTW! Same situation re: the load data.

Cheers!

Possibly depending upon when you talked to Speer, that isn't necessarily true. Several years back I bought a box of 125. gr .357 Gold Dots and the "hollow point" was a dish rather than what one expects. Outstanding performance at Magnum velocities. IIRC, pretty much nothing at .38 Spl velocities.

.357 diameter bullets (esp. the lighter ones) have a severe challenge. If they'll expand at .38 velocities, they often fail at .357 velocities. OTOH, if the do well at Magnum velocities, expansion at .38 velocities can be most disappointing. The Remington 125 SJHP does well on expansion at both velocity envelopes, but if you're looking for the FBI mandated penetration, you'll be disappointed. The Sierra 125 JHP does better penetration wise, but doesn't expand as much.

I was speaking with them about three years ago, and about loaded ammo, not component bullets. Actually, the topic had to do with their .44 Spl load out of a 2.75" Model 69.

Don't get lost in the velocity issue.

Check out the ballistics data for your ammo at:

luckygunner dot com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

They even have your Speer ammo featured in a video.

I have shot the 115 and 124gr Gold Dot factory ammo in a 3 & 3.5" 9mm pistol.

The 115 has a higher fps & Ft/lb in the 3" barrel than the 124 Gold Dot.

The 124 Gr bullet works better in the 3.5" barrel for best ft/lbs, over all.

A third option would be the Federal 147 gr. HST in these short barrel 9mm barrels
for a SD load that should work for you.

In the 38 Special department, lots of things can happen, to SD loads
due to the fps and design of the bullets used.

In my M49 38 J frame snub nose, the above can make or break a SD load.

A 110 gr Gold Dot needs 972fps out of a snub nose to expand and penetrate enough, to work properly.
A 125 gr Gold Dot at 836fps out of my revolver did not expand and could have been loaded a 2nd time , after passing through water jugs !!

The 135 Gold Dot worked well for me as did the "FBI" 158 Lead bullet by Remington and Federal.

My latest test with the Federal 130 gr. HST Micro load also passed with flying colors
with very good POA accuracy, low ES and very light recoil for a SD load
out of a J frame revolver.

The recoil of these SD loads, their POA, and how fast you can get back on target for a 2nd follow up shot, if needed, all needs to be taken in by the shooter, as to which load is the best for them to use.

It just takes time at the range and how you and your guns handle the ammo.

Good shooting.

Ed: What load did you finally end up with on those 130gr Federal "micro"' HSTs?

Cheers!

I find it very difficult to believe grown people find the 9mm recoil too hard to handle!!

If you actually do then you may have to drop down to something less painful. Many people these days are changing over to .22 LR or .22 WMR. Both work well if you stick to head shots. When you consider your chances of NEEDING a self defense firearm are very slim simply have a gun, any gun.

I can certainly see different skives and maybe thinner jackets on rounds that will have a lower velocity to still allow them to expand at lower speeds. Think 45 ACP in a pocket 3" 1911? I have one and I may need to roll my own.

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NRA RSO

Many years ago I brought a group of my friends to the range to try out their handguns and get the opportunity to shoot calibers up to 357 Magnum. One was a young lady, maybe weighed 90 pounds. She did great with 22LR and wanted to try a real caliber, so one of my friends had his Browning Hi-Power, loaded with white box 115 grain FMJ. She fired one shot and we grabbed the pistol as it came over her head. She went back to 22, had no interest in anything else, so they are out there.

Conversely, another friend with a 10mm Glock had trouble hitting his targets. His girlfriend asked to try it and she absolutely nailed every target. Everyone has their tolerance level.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Speer Gold Dot 9mm ammo is very good - I have 5 or 6 boxes of both +P and Std. Vel. That said, I truly believe the Federal HST 124 grain std. vel. does edge out the Gold Dots a tad. I can only go by tests I've seen and articles I've read, but the HST usually comes out a 1/2 notch up on the Speer. I'm sure the Speer would do what it has to do, but as long as I have a choice, I go for the very best. To me that is the HST.

Recoil is a funny thing. The first 9mm my wife fired was the big Star B Super. She said it was no trouble. Next range trip she tried a Star BM and hated it, but found the Ruger LC9s no trouble at all. Color me baffled.

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Release the Kraken

Here is a picture of my finals.
Both load #29 & #30, were close to POA and above the minimum fps
that I wanted in this SD load as well as a low ES for a good load.

One test site stated that 800fps was needed to work in gel out of
the S&W revolver tested as did another test with the revolver and ammo being "Iced" and tested in 42* temperatures, into Gel.

With the deep seating of this bullet, into the 38 case, a crimp is
not, really needed but add if it makes you feel better.

Try both powders if you have them, both work well while load #30 has the best ES, if that matters, to you. (60% vol. )
Note;
The #29 load with Red Dot filled the case 75% with powder.

Good luck.

Your final choices flat amaze me: I don't have ANY ONE of those four powders...!

I have, pistol-wise...

Bullseye, Longshot, Accurate #2, #5 & #7, WIN231, True Blue, Unique, 700X, 800X, AutoComp, Clays, CFE-Pistol & Universal. Even some IMR4227. None made your finals!

Who'd've thunk?

Cheers!

w231 at 4.2 grs of powder just made it to the 800 fps field of play but
it only had a 53% case volume, with the seated bullet, that I do not
feel comfortable using , in a SD loading.

A little more powder got me to 916fps, which was over the factory loading.

I also tried 4227, HS-6 and "Steel" with all the powders used, just to see what might work
with this new style of bullet, for the little 38 snub nose revolver.

With the long 38 & 357 cases, I feel better with loads that fill the case near 68% or more
for any serious loads, that I might use and a low ES is not a bad idea, either.
Even better if it is close to your POA !!

Guys, this is the Ammo forum, not the Reloading forum. Lets try to stay on topic. The OP is asking about factory ammo.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I have always found the difference between 115 and 124 grain FMJ ammo from the same manufacturer in terms of recoil is small. A lot of FMJ range ammo is loaded on the mild side. If you are comparing 115 grain FMJ range ammo to premium 124 grain +P ammo for self defense there will be a very noticeable difference in recoil.

If you are concerned about recoil look at the regular pressure ammo instead of +P. The +P variety is more powerful but only about 10% more powerful. Which helps but its not like going from a 38 Special to a 357 Magnum. More power is better than less all else being equal but comes at the cost of increased recoil.

Also try some 147 grain ammo. I have found in short barrels it has a little less recoil and muzzle blast which makes it easier to shoot well. That long bullet takes up so much room in the case it is loaded with smaller amounts of faster burning powder compared to lighter bullets. More of the powder is burned before the bullet leaves the barrel where it does nothing but create muzzle blast and recoil. A lot of the time you will see "short barrel" ammo loaded with heavy bullets for this reason.

Maybe this thread ought to be moved to the Reloading forum...?

At least 25 others have posted to it without complaint: wonder if the OP still has any interest?

Cheers!

I'm sorry.

I was doing fine until I was "Bushwhacked" after my #23 posting.