Are wadcutters still a good choice for self defense (thinking.38/.357)? I see that a copper/copper coated wadcutter is being offered. If I were to use wadcutters, they would be copper.

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otis

They are…less recoil and blast for those sensitive to that and for very lightweight revolvers. The sharp edges of the projectile cut veins and arteries in a body.

While a wad cutter may not be the primo defense round they’re nothing to downplay either.

A hit with a wad cutter is more effective than a loud miss with a heavier recoiling round that the shooter cannot properly handle.

I think wadcutters are probably a great defensive choice for small-frame snub-nose revolvers. Many hollow points simply won't expand at the lower velocities from short barrels. I also wouldn't hesitate to use lead wadcutters. Many shooters consider wadcutters as only target loads, but the bullets also have some unique characteristics to create some really nasty wound channels.

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If you are looking for the least recoiling 38 Special load, absolutely.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Of course, see below. 😎
15 yds offhand, will do this all day long.

Love that Model 10 photo. Great shooting. I may try your load, albeit with Missouri Bullets 148 grain DEWC. I have been using Winchester 231 in .38 target loads, but I do have a couple of pounds of Unique that I use in other calibers.

Flying trash cans! Accurate and make nice big holes.I buy them when I can find them. It’s a great 38 special round.

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Remain Viable

An interesting treatise on the effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet. Wicked wadcutters? A defensive load you may not have considered. - Free Online Library

Another site to check out is the Lucky gunner site https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/ As you can see, even though the wadcutter in 38 special didn't expand it got almost perfect penetration. Back in the day they were considered to be a reliable defense round.

For model 52s , they are essential!

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S&WHF 483 , S&WCA 1699

Good old fashioned target wadcutter ammo is still one of the best SD loads available for snub nose revolvers.

It produces a great wound canal with modest recoil and noise. These features are particularly important in encouraging practice for shooting skill development.

It’s not sexy: it just works very, very well.

The target wadcutter ammo is underpowered by design - faster recovery during rapid fire, easier on the recoil sensitive when shooting all day, etc. Most people's experience with wadcutters ends there.

Personally, I've been hunting thin-skinned game like whitetail deer with handguns for 40+ years. I'd guess that I've dressed around 100 that were taken with a handgun, very often with handloaded hard cast lead wadcutters. I'd assert that terminal performance on 170+ pound animals is a much more reliable indicator than ballistic gel or gunfight anecdotes.

I'm also skeptical about hollowpoint ammo appreciably expanding if it doesn't hit bone or is moving below ~1,100 FPS at impact. At east coast woods distances, .44 special wadcutters loaded to around 1,000 FPS from a 6" revolver are demonstrably more effective than .45 ACP hollowpoints. They are about as effective as hot .357 hollows at similar distances and shot placements but kick and cost lot less. As a bullet shape, the wadcutter is a solid choice for defense ammo. As a complete cartridge they are, too, when loaded to do that job. They're also much more accurate.

Are wadcutters still a good choice for self-defense (thinking.38/.357)? I see that a copper/copper-coated wadcutter is being offered. If I were to use wadcutters, they would be copper.

Indeed they are, and quite popular now. Certainly, the Wadcutter is a viable option in relation to the traditional JHPs for self-defense. Low-recoil, accurate, and a decent wound channel cutter to say the least.

I still have most of a box of original Hydra-Shok .38 Special ammo…a 148 grain lead hollow point wad cutter with the post in the center to aid expansion. I used it in an aluminum frame Colt Cobra I used to carry off-duty when restricted to revolvers.

If you are talking about factory loaded ammo yes full wadcutters are a reasonable choice for 38 Special SD rounds in a typical house.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Why would a copper be a better option than plain lead

I wouldn't want to get hit with one!

These are relevant in M25/625.

Yes, I was about to say something about NYPD Jim Cirillo liking Wadcutters in Defensive Handguns. I believe he had his own design at one stage.

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To prevent leading of the barrel.

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otis

With the low velocity and pressure of true target wadcutter loads, I doubt that leading would be an issue unless the revolver had problems such as undersized chamber throats, pitted throats, oversized bore, pitted bore, or rough forcing cone.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Excellent and short read. Thanks for posting the link.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

I've been shooting cast lead wadcutters since 1967 ...
I cast them and lube with Lithi-Bee bullet lube .
What is leading of the barrel ?
You need better bullets or better lubricant ...
Leading can be overcome in this modern day and age .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Ed Harris wrote about full power wadcutters.

Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

When I carried a small bore revolver, these are what I used. And yes, they can take deer.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Why wouldn't they be? It is kind of curious that a box of factory wadcutters is hard to find on the shelves. I haven't seen any for years. They used to be the standard. Guess that's the reason for the question.

This is true, but a plated boolit or powder coated boolit doesn't require as much work or thought to solve issues and doesn't have to be fit to each gun. You load it and move on.

Rosewood

Before WWII they sold lead WCs for 22s.
Yes, a hit with a 38 WC hurts a lot more than a miss with a more powerful round.
I loaded 38 S&Ws with HBWCs for my Enfield No. 2 Mk1, worked fine.

Educmacate me on this. My Enfield shoots .312 caliber bullets. Is that a handgun? Or bored out rifle?

Rosewood

The Enfield No. 2 Mk1-basically a copy of the Webley Mark IV-was adopted by the UK as their service revolver in 1927. Caliber 380-38 S&W to us.

OK, I'll be the naysayer here. The typical factory loaded wadcutter is lucky to be going 800 fps out of a 2" barrel. So there's not much power there. If it hits something vital, great, but you better have precision shot placement. Otherwise, you've just carved a .358 hole in the guy that has little chance of actually stopping his aggression. Just look at why Teddy Roosevelt dropped the .38. And no, I don't believe there's much difference between a flat bullet and a round bullet in this instance.

It's your life, so it's your choice. Feel free to use a slow wadcutter to protect you and yours. However, there are literally hundreds of better options.

No one is saying a wadcutter is the only option...just that it's an option. Everyone has their own specific set of needs and preferences and each case is unique. We each have to determine our own needs and what best suits those needs.

True, but I don't really see how a wadcutter ends up being the best option if one is choosing a bullet for specifically for self defense.

Is it a bad choice? No.
Are they the "best" choice? No.
Are they a good choice? They'll probably work as well as anything else in most scenarios...

The bullets and most load data is geared towards being used as target rounds.

I agree...not necessarily the best option...but it is an option. It all comes down to mental preparedness...tactics...use of verbal commands...the ability to think and act accordingly and accuracy.

Bullet designs are constantly changing...what might be best today might be tomorrow's second rate design.

Choose an effective round that one is competent with...practice...practice...practice. Two quick hits with a wadcutter may be better than one miss or peripheral hit with a more effective round that recoil too much for some.

The least effective .38 Special round may be the 158 grain lead round nose or the 130 grain FMJ round duplicating the military M41...and both have been used for decades effectively...and also non-effectively. There are no guarantees...you can use .38 Special JHP +P+ and do everything right...and still die.

For use in a lightweight snubby, and for most people in most defensive situations, a FWC load will be in the running as a top choice.

I'm fine with them.

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Joshua 1:9

Yeah, but other than that, what do they have going for them?

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Formerly Model520Fan

Let's get real here.

If you knew that you were going to need a gun tomorrow, you wouldn't leave the house without a rifle or shotgun and probably take along a buddy with rifle or a shotgun. Every easily concealable handgun is a compromise. Every. One. If you carry a concealed handgun, then you should know this. None of them are magic blasters.

However, 99.9999999% of us won't need a gun tomorrow, but on the off chance that we do, we carry a concealed handgun. Sometimes, it is a small handgun, like a J-frame, that is hard to shoot, especially in a high stress encounter. That hollow point probably isn't going to expand at snubby velocities, and if recoil is stout you might not shoot accurately. In this case, wadcutters with proven penetration and minimal recoil, might just be the ticket. You are more prone to get multiple hits on the vitals, with bullets that will cause damage without needing expansion, and with adequate penetration.

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Only a cold warrior

Back in the day, .38 special wadcutters were useful and effective against assailants, especially when fired from lightweight, short barreled revolvers.

Unfortunately, they don't work anymore.

First, hollow points not expanding from snubbies may have been true 20-30 years ago, but that's no longer the case. It's demonstrably true that that will expand from snubbies if you choose the load designed for snubbies, of which there are many.

Second, if you want to cause the most damage without needing expansion, then carry the largest diameter bullet such as a .44 or .45 instead of a .38. Otherwise, go with expansion.

I would guess with WCs cast of Lead with 5% Tin and reasonable charge for snubby, you wouldn’t have to worry about coating, plating or lubing. I shot 10 Lyman Button Nose 242 gr WCs out of 25-5, running approx 650fps. They were shot as cast with no lube or size. Clean as a whistle. This out of same gun that Speer 250SWC had lead creeping out the muzzel, with same charge.

I produce ammo and one of the most popular loads I make is a 148 grain full wadcutter for folks who will carry them in snub nose guns. They are what I use/carry in my own 442.



I carried the same gun/load combo when I was on the job as a BUG, and now that I work for myself, I see zero reason to change.

<<Wicked wadcutters? A defensive load you may not have considered.>>

<<"a popular bullet with revolver shooters was the "lead pencil": a 230-grain .358-diameter full wadcutter">>

Color me interested... can't find anything online about this.

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Uvidíme se později, aligátore.

"OK, I'll be the naysayer here. The typical factory loaded wadcutter is lucky to be going 800 fps out of a 2" barrel. So there's not much power there. If it hits something vital, great, but you better have precision shot placement. Otherwise, you've just carved a .358 hole in the guy that has little chance of actually stopping his aggression. Just look at why Teddy Roosevelt dropped the .38. And no, I don't believe there's much difference between a flat bullet and a round bullet in this instance.

It's your life, so it's your choice. Feel free to use a slow wadcutter to protect you and yours. However, there are literally hundreds of better options."

Contrary,
The "Wadcutter" is here to stay whether we like it or not. There's no denying that it isn't a lethal round. It's a very formidable round out of a 1.875" J frame barrel. Albeit, it has a low velocity... it can still penetrate deep. In fact, I would argue that it meets the FBI standard for penetration and then some. And not to forget that it's a very accurate round. Also note, the wadcutter does not need to expand to be effective, but rather its full flat tip, and or full concaved tip along with a sharp and round edge is very effective at cutting. Lastly, bullets don't always have to expand massively to be effective as in the case of the modern hollow point.

Sorry, picture is from 2014.

These are my first 5 shots out of my 1960 model 36.
Standing, free handed at ten yards. I was a much better shooter back then.

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2B1ASK1

Shoot what you aim at and make good hits and most bullets will do the job. Hit something important and the attack usually stops, especially if it's followed by a big leak.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Weren't we all....

I know I was. My illness 3+ years ago put an end to that...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Well, that's not good...are you alright otherwise?

Very good advice, but generally not well taken by the gunfighting aspirants.

'Gunfighting aspirants' - I love it.