Wadcutters still relevant?

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The quote about about Gettysburg is usually attributed to George Pickett.
"General, why did we lose at Gettysburg ?"
"I believe the Army of the Potomac had something to do with it."
The reversed HBWC was recommended back in the days before hollow point bullets as we know had been developed, and back when reloads for self defense were more acceptable

 

[djohns6]

I don't remember the last time I saw a box of wadcutters on the shelf . I had a guy give me a box of .38 special LRN rounds . I doubt I'll ever shoot them .

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I don't remember the last time I saw a box of wadcutters on the shelf . I had a guy give me a box of .38 special LRN rounds . I doubt I'll ever shoot them .

158 grain LRN put bad guys down for generations. I still have two or three boxes in reserve if I cannot get my favorite JHP.

 

[BSA1]

OK, I'll be the naysayer here. The typical factory loaded wadcutter is lucky to be going 800 fps out of a 2" barrel. So there's not much power there. If it hits something vital, great, but you better have precision shot placement. Otherwise, you've just carved a .358 hole in the guy that has little chance of actually stopping his aggression.

In a small town I was a leo in we had a problems with opossums or rather some citizens did. They would leave a bowl of dog or cat food outside overnight and opossums would come along and enjoy a free meal. Well when the homeowner would let fido out to chase the opossum away it would instead fight back. Opossums have a lot of sharp little teeth and the dog would usually ending up on the losing end and need a trip to the vet. So calls to destroy opossum were common.

We kept a box of 38 Special full Wadcutter Ammunition in the cars for back-up use. I got the usual opossum call one night. The homeowners had it trapped inside a outdoor trash can where it was probably enjoying a meal. Since this was a mobile home park I loaded my gun with the 38 Special Wadcutter, took careful aim and shot it just above it eyes for a perfect brain shot. Only the bullet just bounced off it's head without doing any damage. Boy, o, boy did that critter get mad. I then killed it with a shot between it shoulders hitting the spine.

As a result I started carrying a box of JHP's for backup use.

p.s. On the other hand I use them to hunt rabbits with a handgun and the same ammunition was very effective only needing one shot.

 

[BSA1]

158 grain LRN put bad guys down for generations. I still have two or three boxes in reserve if I cannot get my favorite JHP.

It was called "The Widow Maker" by Cops due to it's lack of stopping power.

Don't confuse being lethal with stopping power. It may be of small comfort to your wife and loved ones if your attackers dies 1/2 hour after you do. The 158 gr. RNL bullet is even a worse choice than full-wadcutter.

 

[Nevada Ed]

It was called "The Widow Maker" by Cops due to it's lack of stopping power.

Don't confuse being lethal with stopping power. It may be of small comfort to your wife and loved ones if your attackers dies 1/2 hour after you do. The 158 gr. RNL bullet is even a worse choice than full-wadcutter.

"Never bring a knife to a gun fight" was only correct 90% of the time.

Yes, the 158 LRN did have some problems but it would get the job done, in time.
Some times to people behind the person being shot, also.

 

[mike campbell]

No. It was never a "good" choice.

 

[rwsmith]

I think I could....

I think I could figure out a load and wadcutter combo that could work as a defense round, or even find a factory loading so it's certainly viable. I just stick with the norm JHPs in standard loading because they are tested and have a real world track record. I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't think that the FBI requirement of 12"-18" in gelatin with heavy clothing is necessary for personal defense because SD is usually head on and very close range. Also why I don't think Bullseye accuracy at 20 yards isn't the most important factor, either. Velocity isn't important, but reliable terminal performance is. Penetration, wound channel and expansion. It would make sense that the wadcutter could be evaluated for these parameters knowing bullet configuration and velocity because there are many possibilities in weight, shape, hardness, etc. There is also the idea of how a load would be presented in court as a possible 'bad' shooting.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

When a student at FLETC we discussed the concept of a bullet's penetration…or more precisely over-penetration. Our class instructor was of the opinion that too much was being made of it. He said that there was little reason to be concerned about over-penetration when most rounds fired miss the intended target anyway.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO just because a SD round doesn't completely pass the FBI standards doesn't mean it's a bad load. We are not the FBI and we have no need to shoot through a car door in most situations. Actually doing so just might get us thrown in jail.

If you find SD ammo which is accurate in your gun and is 100% reliable but only tests @11.5" penetration in Jello, not real flesh, I would use it anyway.

 

[biku324]

And folks also need to chill down - not every assailant is a slobbering, hulking brute that is dedicated to your personal evisceration.

If you read actual shooting investigations, you'll find some folks shot fall down immediately no matter what hit them, some are surprised but not otherwise physically effected AND do stop attacking; those who keep attacking are those enraged, drunk, crazy, or high - they may not stop until they bleed out or have bony support structures shot away regardless of being hit multiple times by handgun rounds. One gentleman (he had murdered his wife a few hours earlier) continued a sustained firefight with one NMSP and one AZ DPS officer despite 3 torso hits with Norma 230 grain 45 ACP JHP and 8 scattered hits with 9mm Winchester 115 grain +P JHP. He wanted to die, and quit when he bled out from a thigh wound from LaDon's 9mm which cut his femoral artery. That's the only such case I read of the fifty-odd I reviewed at Internal Affairs.

Use what you can hit with and keep shooting until there's no more threatening action coming toward you. Personally, I like and carry 45 ACP and Auto Rim or 357 magnum because I read 10 years worth of shooting reports. But if I only had a 36 caliber Navy Colt with 5 round balls over FFFG in the cylinder, I'd feel better than if naked.

 

[David Lee Valdina]

I load the solid base wad cutters and have confidence in them. The hollow base wad cutters can have a hole blown through them if loaded too hot. Ken Waters warns against this. Lead bullets achieve a bit higher velocity with less pressure than jacketed bullets. Good choice.

 

[ispcapt]

The 158 gr. RNL bullet is even a worse choice than full-wadcutter.

Several of us use to make a wadcutter of sorts our of the 158 gr LRN by cutting off the end of the round nose to make a flat meplat. We didn't cut them flush with the case mouth but just enough of the round nose where the bullet started tapering to a point. IIRC we removed about 8 gr of the bullet making it a 150 gr flat point. It was a bit easier to reload than the flush case squared off 148 gr WC.
We didn't care for factory WC as it was loaded pretty soft which is understandable given its purpose for target shooting. The 158 gr was loaded a bit hotter. Don't know that it was ever used in anger. It was effective putting down road hit deer but that wasn't a real measure of performance.

 

[gtoppcop]

In my three J-Frame snubs (442, 36-1 and 37-2), I carry wadcutters. The only departure that i make is to actually test/shoot each one with several loadings to determine which one shoots to the sights.

My favorite wadcutter is the excellent 157gr hardcast lead wadcutter made my Matt's Bullets. Since Matt is a licensed ammo maker, I had him load a quantity of training (mixed brass) and Nickel Starline brass for carry. He loaded them with TiteGroup that I specified through several years of trial and error. The resultant load shoots well in nearly every .38/.357 gun I own. It especially shoots well in the 36-1 Chief's Special that my "mole" at the Performance Center did for me years ago.

Why so much on accurate snubs/wadcutters? That's what will end hostilities; accurate placement of your defensive ammuntion. The heavy 157gr LWC with a full meplat and sharp edges at approx. 850+/- fps will do the "heavy lifting".

The old stories of the LAPD/LASD (insert agency here) LEOs in the 1950s/60s that "forgot" to download their practice wadcutters in their K-38s or Official Police revolvers and used them to good effect to gain the "compliance by gunfire" somewhat tells the story of how effective accurate placement of the ubiquitous wadcutter can win the day.

Yes, there's better round/bullet combos out there. Some of us older shooters prefer the wheelgun and the ammunition that we can shoot well. In most situations, the accurate placement of the round is what is needed.

Just my paltry $.02 of free advice...

 

[biku324]

Reduce the odds.

You're unlikely to ever face a deadly threat. The possibility is worth preparing for.

If you have to fire in a deadly force encounter, you'll need to score hits. Making hits likely under stress is worth preparing for.

A person hit by gunfire is very likely to stop attacking. They may not, but you're now in a position even with wadcutters or small caliber handguns where you've reduced odds of a bad outcome enormously.

The next step, choosing a caliber/ammo with a good track record, takes you to the end of this trail with odds against a bad outcome reduced to a very low level. If you need more, based on intelligent risk assessment, sling a shotgun.

You get to pick.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

There are some options in wadcutter ammunition beyond match grade wadcutters...

Underwood Ammo 38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter Box of 20

Atomic Ammo 38 Special +P 148 Grain Lead Hollow Point Box of 50

Buffalo Bore Ammo 38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter Box of 20

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The old stories of the LAPD/LASD (insert agency here) LEOs in the 1950s/60s that "forgot" to download their practice wadcutters in their K-38s or Official Police revolvers and used them to good effect to gain the "compliance by gunfire" somewhat tells the story of how effective accurate placement of the ubiquitous wadcutter can win the day.

Uncle Frank served 1947-1977 and we shared a lot of "War Stories" but I never heard that one, ever. Matter of fact never heard that until today.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

and alot of the officers carrying 357 magnum revolvers were very dutiful and used once fired 38 special brass provided by their officially issued 38 special 158 grain lswc ammunition, to load a slightly different 158 grain swc over a magnum charge of powder to create a truly effective load.

The way I heard it was you get your "duty ammo" pull the bullet with a bullet puller (reloaders know what I am talking about) dump the factory powder, drop X.x of Blue Dot powder, seat and crimp the bullet.

 

[LAH]

And id be mighty scared to use the ammo you linked to IN A MAGNUM revolver.

Underwood Ammo 38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter Box of 20
Atomic Ammo 38 Special +P 148 Grain Lead Hollow Point Box of 50
Buffalo Bore Ammo 38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter Box of 20

You would be scared to use these IN A MAGNUM revolver?

 

[riverrat38]

I have used the BB 150gr hard cast WC cartridges in my M442. They are snappy for a standard pressure load, which they are, but quite doable. Double Tap has a hard cast WC that is between a target WC and the BB load. 750fps in a 2" revolver advertised. The main reason I don't carry WC's in my 442 is because I can't shot them at the indoor range that is my only shooting option. Also, my 442 shoots quite high with heavy bullets. I did shoot some, and got busted when the RO noticed the smoke on the CCTV in the range. I don't think it's reasonable to expect good penetration and expansion in a standard load through a 2" barrel. I will take penetration!

73,
Rick