Lately, it seems, that there is quite a bit of interest and perhaps uproar about the wadcutter bullet as a viable self-defense option for the short-barreled snub nose revolver. To some, they might argue that no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion. Others might argue that it's a worthless option and has no real-world application to this date.

My question is ...

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.

Any round you can control and hit with is a viable choice for defense.

I like Remington 158 grain LSWC

Be interesting to see how many verified incidents of its employment there are. As noted a Hit with a Minor Caliber hurts a lot more than a Miss with a Major.

Would you be talking of reloads with the hollow base facing out? Else, a wadcutter will likely keep about the same diameter it started with and at velocities that are not amenable to expansion. I have never seem a factory jacketed wadcutter. For self defense work I’d go for the best SJHP money can buy

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"Well, do ya punk??"

That Remington load has the same muzzle energy as their 102 grain .380 load, 200 FPE. Between the two though the .38 is probably the better choice.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Be careful! When you reverse the hollow base bullet you greatly reduce the volume of the case and a standard powder charge could cause dangerously high pressure. Dangerous in that it could blow through the thin center of the bullet and leave it stuck in the barrel.

With that in mind, I loaded a few with a half charge of powder and they worked. They flattened to about the size of a quarter and didn't penetrate much. I didn't have a chronograph in those days so velocity is unknown.

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6/23/2022

There are people around today with lots of the same knowledge and experience as Askins and the others had, but cannot or will not talk or write about their experiences due to the current legal and political climate.

People who post on or read this forum who have been involved in shootings generally never mention their experiences for the same reasons.
Too much chance of stirring up lawsuits from past shootings.

A wad-cutter is better than carrying nothing

It all depends on your situation and environment

In Florida where everyone wears light weight shorts most of the year it would work just fine

In NY or Montana or Minnesota or Alaska in the wither time a wad-cutter might not get past the leather jacket or sheepskin shearling that folks might be wearing

Choose the proper tool for the job

If it were true that the only folks that have been in a gunfight are passed and no one ever replaced them, why would Any of us Need to Carry

The truth is that there are are thousands, more probably many tens of thousands of people in this Great Nation who have defended themselves or others by discharging a firearm. I know of several on this Forum that fit that Catagory

There are Many, MANY more if we include those who are abroad protecting the American Way of Life. I have no count of the number in this category that I am acquainted with

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"Acta non verba"

For what its worth, here is my experiance:


Like everything else, it depends on the round. Wadcutters make a good hole and cause damage, but you need to keep the velocity up. Alot of the WC rounds are meant for target shooting. Buffalo bore and some other folks make defensive load wadcutters if you look hard enough, and also 'hard cast' which wont deform which helps on the gel tests I have seen. Based on my research, all else being equal, the 'right' wadcutter outperforms a FMJ.

With "high-powered" rounds, I have seen ballistics tests where .32 caliber wad-cutters perform amazingly well, almost on par with 380 or even standard 9mm, in terms of penetration depth and wound channel diameters. So I believe whatever caliber, if loaded right it is a round that can punch up out of its weight class.

I mention this little guy (.32) because I studied it alot more than others with regards to wad-cutters. It has always been considered the most inherently accurate round, and with so little recoil even a novice can be good with it. Whatever your carrying, it only helps if you can put the rounds on target. We really became a "bigger is better" gun group as americans, and everyone wants something with a larger caliber that makes a bigger hole. Thats fine for most guys, and if you just carry a tomahawk missile you'll never be outgunned. I was curious about how much is too little and what was overkill so I could figure out how small and manageable a gun could be and still be guaranteed lethal, so I spent a lot of time studying this to try and properly arm my wife with something she would actually carry, and be able to use well. I started at .45 and worked my way down and when she got to the .32 she could put 5 of 5 in the center with rapid fire from 7yds, and thats what I wanted. But the .32 rounds are generally weak, so I looked into how to make them more consistently lethal without loosing the 'shootability'.

On low velocity rounds, like the 32, you often will not have the velocity for a hollow point to work. So besides everyone not liking the small diameter of the round, and then the mostly anemic loads that are easily available, you then apply what works well for a 38spl and it performs like **** on a 32. I know hollow points are not an issue with 9mm and 38spl, because they dont have a velocity issue. However, a wadcutter is already full diameter, almost like shooting already 'expanded'. Plus it 'cuts' the tissue, where the rounded-nose jacketed slugs 'push' tissue out of the way, so the wound channel closes back behind the bullet. A bigger hole is better, because it means more tissue and blood loss. The gel tests I have seen show a wadcutter cutting a much larger hole when compared to a same size FMJ, so a larger wound path with the WC round (all things being equal). I think we all would agree a bigger hole is better. Of course if you carry a 45 or a 500 your making a bigger hole, but I am not a big guy and found myself leaving the 45 in the car too often, and again, doesnt matter if its a bazooka if you dont have it on you, so I moved down to a 38spl because it never leaves my side.

There are drawbacks with power with the wad-cutters, and with rounds under 9mm. but velocity is velocity and as long as you have enough the wadcutter will penetrate leather jacket, sweater, shirt, skin, bone and tissue. I see 15" penetration with good .32 in the gel, and thats through 3 layers of clothes. Once your over say 900fps (which is like 615mph) the bullet is going to penetrate, and I wouldnt want to be shot with one to test it in person.

So, yes, carry the largest caliber that you will carry consistently, but past that I think a good wadcutter load will do more damage than FMJ, but maybe not as much as a hollow point with larger rounds like 38spl or even 9mm. Where velocity becomes a problem (like 380 or .32) wadcutters seem to make up some of that difference and perform well, when loaded right.


Thats one persons research, take it only for what its worth... I'd always recommend buying some ammo and performing your own tests.

If full wadcutter bullets were good for self defense in snubnose revolvers they would be marketed as such.

I have been personally involved in shootings using the 148 gr. Lead Full-Wadcutter.

Incident #1 occurred when I was a Police Officer in a small town. Some citizens would leave a bowl of dog or cat food outside overnight and a opossum would come along and help itself to a free meal. The homeowner would send fido outside to chase off the opossum. Well opossums are not a fast runner and have a lot of very sharp little teeth so they would fight back with fido losing the fight. Homeowner would be upset about fido getting chewed up and call us to kill the critter.

So one night I was dispatched to kill a opossum. The homeowner had trapped one inside a large trashcan where it was enjoying a meal. As I was in a mobile park and was concerned about a bullet bouncing off of a hard surface and passing through a thin wall I loaded my gun with a 148 gr. Lead Semi-Wadcutter .38. I took careful aim and from very close range shot the critter at it’s head just above it’s eyes. The bullet failed to penetrate and bounced off resulting in a very angry opossum!!!. Using the same ammunition I then shot it from it’s back hitting the spine and killing it. The bullet passed completely through its body.

Another incident involved hunting rabbits with a handgun. The 148 gr. Lead Full-Wadcutter makes excellent hunting round for rabbits. It passes completely through the body leaving a nice round hole with little bloodshot damage to the meat.

So my point is the 148 gr. Full-Wadcutter will easily reach and may even pass through soft tissue. It will not reliably penetrate and can be deflected by hard item such as a rib bone preventing the bullet from entering the chest cavity. It’s performance can also be diminished by heavy clothing.

In addition many (most?) attackers have not read this discussion forum and do not know they are suppose to end their attack and lay down quietly after being shot once. Without this knowledge their body and brain may not react immediately especially if on drugs or alcohol and continue their attack until blood loss shuts their body down. It is of little comfort to your family and loved ones if your attacker dies 1/2 hour after you do.

Tim Sundles knows more than I do...

"The flat on the nose ensures that the bullet will cut/smash its way through flesh and bone and do much more destruction than typical round nose FMJ bullets. Round nosed bullets tend to slip and slide through matter, doing little damage as opposed to a flat nosed bullet. The flat nose not only wounds much more than a round nosed bullet, but it actually keeps the penetration straight and thus deeper."

Why not just use ammo marketed for defensive use? I've never shot anything but paper targets with wadcutter ammo, factory or handloads. For this, such ammo works well. Velocity is low, as designed. From a snubnose .38 it's really low.

Wear shooting glasses and don't get too close to your berm or backstop in case a slow-moving bullet hits something solid and bounces back.

Rockquarry & S-W forever,

To your comments, there are some wadcutters that are marketed for self defense. But marketing is just marketing. There are fruit loops marketed for a healthy breakfast, electric cars marketed to save the planet, 22mag marketed as defensive and cigarettes were marketed as not cancer causing, until someone finally put the science to them. Dont pay attention to marketing, pay attention to the math & science and real world results. (I dont mean that to be 'snarky').

They will market what they think they can sell. Interestingly, currently there seem to be more people asking how to carry smaller guns with smaller calibers and still be lethal, which is why I think we are finally starting to see (though rare) marketed defensive wadcutters in small calibers. Might be because more people are arming themselves, which statistically doesnt mean your adding a great amount of 6ft men, your adding (numerically) a majority of women and older folks, who have not carried in the last 20-30 years.

Most rounds sold for wadcutters would not be considered good enough for defense (I mean using the accepted FBI standards of testing). You would have to get the right round or load yourself. You can get them where they will punch through skull, but you have to do that specifically. as far as the bullet shape, its just a chunk of lead. Cast it in a star shape if you want, whatever damages the tissue more would be best. Then push it as hard as you can.

And I also think a wadcutter for 9mm or 38spl is really pointless as a defensive round, because you have so many better options, like hollow points, which is why I brought up the .32. When you have easily available options that are better, why consider anything less?

BSA-1 gave a real world first hand experience, as did I. And in both cases there are some details to consider. Without a major study everything we might contribute to the conversation is anecdotal only, just for consideration, but even with enough anecdotal information you may see a pattern.


And cops typically shoot a lot, so thats always information worth considering. My grandfather was 20yr police office and a Chief for 2. He remembers when they came through and got rid of the large bore magnums, which he preferred. They had bean-counters analyze years of data and found the smaller calibers were easier to control, hence more accurate and lethal to criminals and less lethal to bystanders as a coincidence, so the department made changes accordingly and went with a smaller caliber. Over the next decade until he retired, It worked as expected in that instance, less issues with unintended harm and no increase to danger to the officers.

I know a lot of older people who carry 32 and use wadcutters, but its because they cant handle a 45 or 38spl anymore. I think it is a special circumstance that makes it worth the effort, but a special circumstance means rare occurrence, and would not apply to most people. I think 32 is good for those that have trouble with the recoil of larger calibers, because it is better than nothing and it is accurate. And in 32, wadcutters add a little more lethality without loosing accuracy. so thats a very specific set of circumstances for certain people.

Someone hopped up on drugs wont care if it is a wadcutter, or a hollow point for that matter. The wound channel is different by millimeters. You'll just have to hit the right spots to cause massive blood loss.

Also, when selecting your carry gun/caliber/ammo, look at the statistics of real life defensive uses. There is some really interesting information out there since we have become a camera-society in the last 10-15 years. I have been surprised that some of the things I was taught 20 years ago and really believed dont seem to play out statistically in real life events.

I think this is a great conversation to have, but like all other "what ammo/gun is best" conversations there are a ton of specific details that affect the answer.

I agree and will also add;

dont shoot slow speed lead WC bullets at old tires at 25 yards or closer.

One day out in the Nevada desert,
the front of my K15 Chevy Blazer, told me that !!

The advice not to use old tires as a backstop is an important safety reminder. Grossly underpowered ammo like target wadcutters makes this practice even more hazardous.

I picked up some really low powered super quiet 22 ammo to keep the garden safe and I saw them bounce off squirrels if I am more than 30 feet way. almost useless, but they are quiet!

I don't carry my S&W Model 38 Airweight often, but when I do it's loaded with wadcutters.

... and there are a lot of variables. Velocity, hardness of the lead, configuration of the cavity.

I think I could put together something but I would want a softer, but not dead soft, maybe around 12 brinell and jacketed or coated to be able to push some velocity.

I did experiment with modifying some heavy 9mm hollow points but I was stymied by what was available commercially, plated and plain and couldn't get any expansion as the alloys were too hard. It would be a good reason to cast my own, but even though it was a fairly long term experiment, six months or so, I wasn't ready to tackle that.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Firing .38 wadcutters against an AR500 target is pretty instructive. Other than actual frangible bullets I’ve never had anything self destruct so completely. The comment about them looking like misshapen quarters is pretty spot on. Very soft and very slow kind of goes against all ballistic knowledge we’ve accumulated over the centuries.

I do have some of those Underwood .44 Magnum full wadcutter loads and have been meaning to try them out. 200gr coated bullet and harder than a true target load. They market it for 2 and 4 legged critters. I have a soft spot for .44 Magnum factory loads that aren’t just going for 240@1200 like everyone else.

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Psalm 27:2

I didnt know they had 44 mag wadcutters... I'd like to see some tests with that

I am thinking we are not talking about the same rounds a lot of the time. Most people know wadcutters as low velocity, soft lead target rounds.

The ones I use (32 & 38) are rated 900fps and are Hard-Cast, so they dont 'pan-out' or deform like the soft lead ones. They can deform some at the leading edges, but mostly in the tests I have seen they stay like a solid round punch. Sometimes they get a bit of a tumble and that makes a real mess in the gel, but its rare, when they hit the clothes/bone overlay in some special way kinda funny


And here is an interesting article I have saved that discusses wadcutters, I am guessing was written before the BBWC's came out. Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

Molds for wad-cutters and hollow base wad-cutters in .411", .432" & .453" have been available to those of us that cast for many, Many years from several manufacturers.

There are even old molds in .455", .500" and other diameters

I can not recall how long I have had the HBWC mold for my 41 Magnums (at least a decade now). My mold has interchangeable pins so that I can drop 194 grain HBWCs or 225 grain solid WCs. My mold drops 4 projectiles at a time, of any combination depending on the pins I use. Though I usually keep them all the same since I use a softer alloy for HBWCs and go hard cast on the solids so I can run them at greater velocities

Here are drawings of the four calibers that MP Molds produces


44 hbwc vs. water jugs.wmv - YouTube

Not the best of videos, but it is the only one I had in my notes

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"Acta non verba"

While we may not agree with everything C.E. "Ed" Harris states, he is among the most knowledgeable of true cast bullet experts (not the self-proclaimed YouTube kind) and anything he writes is worth reading. Harris was a former AMERICAN RIFLEMAN writer and technical staff member (when AR had such a staff). Much of his wisdom and advice comes from bona-fide testing that required lots of shooting effort and time. He was also a Ruger employee. I think he's pretty well retired from writing these days but you'll find very few with the cast bullet background and credentials that Harris has.

At the velocities that Remington loads their 148 grain Wad Cutters it would certainly NOT be my first, second or third choice for SD/HD! IMHO they are excellent for paper targets but that is where it ends.

If we are restricting our discussion to factory loaded 148 gr swaged HB wadcutters out of a 2” bl., I would not carry that load for SD. It is a great target load & that is it’s intended purpose.
If you wanted to expand the discussion to hard cast wadcutters, then my answer is going to be different.
I cast 38’s,41’s,44’s & 45 wadcutters in weights ranging from 146 gr to 283 gr. These bullets can be seated out and driven to much faster velocities than the swaged bullets.
I carry these bullets in my short barrel big bore revolvers for SD and have the utmost confidence in them.

Attached Images

64531A23-1CD4-4941-8570-70D6986B7C69.jpg (22.8 KB, 30 views)

32 S&W Long shooting Magtech 98gr wadcutters with a listed velocity of 682fps out of a 4" barrel produced an average of 13.7" of penetration in Lucky Gunner's gel tests from a 2" barrel, and an average of 14.4" out of a 4" barrel.

All American manufactured target 38spl wadcutter ammo appears to meet or exceed the Magtech 32 Long wadcutter velocity, so I would expect pretty similar or slightly better penetration.

Fwiw, I have Buffalo Bore hard cast 32 Long wadcutters in case I ever carry my 32 Long, and I also have Buffalo Bore standard pressure hard cast 38spl loads on hand for the couple of non +P rated 38spls I have.

I know I am resurrecting an older thread, but I don't want to start a newer one. I think it's best to pick back up where this one left off with all the points and options that were already stated...My question is, why do some in this thread believe 148-150 gr wadcutters would be underpowered?

1. Buffoon Bore, Underwood, and others make hard LSWC that will penetrate heavy auto glass and other intermediate objects and still bore a straight line right through bone into the target.
2. It's generally not affected by heavy clothing like JHP.
3. It won't deflect or ricochet when hitting like round FMJ.
4. There will be no jacket separation like with non-bonded flat FMJ.
5. It's not dependent on velocity like JHP.
6. It's typically much cheaper than defensive bonded JHP.
7. The recoil is typically much more manageable especially when being fired from lightweight revolvers.
8. They will perform better and be more favorable than an unexpanded JHP, which is something that I've seen happen a lot in ballistic testing.
9. It performs great out of 2" or less barrels...

It seems that many here act as if LSWC is so underpowered that they will just bounce off bone or something. What am I missing?

I think it is a combination of cognitive dissonance and information bias. We all do it. The rest is probably just miscommunication.
For how long was it true that 32 was greatly underpowered, and really no one talked much about the difference in bullet shape/design. There is so much research and information and testing being done in the last 20 years that new information is coming out and new things are available, like 1500fps 32WC, and being able to better see/understand wound paths and ancillary shock effects of different slugs,... but then you say "32 isn't that bad" and one person thinks your talking about the old anemic 32 and another just cant believe it because for so long the opposite was a true and accepted fact.

Here is a nerds perspective:
- Everything about shooting is just throwing rocks, something man has been doing forever. We just figure out easier, more accurate and better ways to throw objects. We can change the weight, speed and delivery system, and thats about it, the rest is dictated by physics. As we change the weight and speed, the physics changes. It takes our slow-to-adapt brains a bit to accept the new changes.

I land speed race, and its amazing to note that A LOT of people are knowledgeable about cars and drag racing or track racing, but when we get to talking about land speed racing it becomes difficult because the physics of what is happening to a car change over 200mph and start doing things you don't encounter under 200mph. Something similar I think happens with these new tweaks in technology and new research, where it takes a bit to adjust our thinking to allow for the new information.

I am a 'bigger-is-better' guy, with bullets and engines, always have been, so I have also been slow to adapt that there are other ways to look at it. A friend of mine is serious into air rifles, and its amazing to me to watch people hunt and kill moose with a small bullet from a silent air rifle. That wouldnt be my go-to. But if you push it fast enough, you dont need the mass. Thats one way to do it.

There is no one 'right' or perfect round, its a little variable. 32 can work, and 38 can work, and 357 can work, depending on all of the circumstances. some work in more cases than others. I still carry a 38spl mostly, but I love the 32's and always have one at least as a backup, and its also whats best for my wife because she isnt scared of it.

I'm glad new attention is being paid to it, am looking forward to new ammo and research.

Effectiveness of 38 wadcutters seems speculative. I can't find analysis of actual use, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

Full disclosure - I carry standard velocity 225 grain Buffalo Bore 45 Auto Rim hard cast wadcutters in my 625-8 (with 230 FMJ FP as extra ammo). Also speculative.

They seem to penetrate and perform well in the same ballistic testing that's done on more traditional defensive ammo. It seems they were carried and used regularly in a defensive role y L.E. at one point. There have been many people, including the owner of Buffalo Bore (Tim Sundles carries his .38 wadcutters in a S&W 340), who carries .38 +p wadcutter and have killed many medium to small sized game with it. Why would it be speculative with .38 and not other calibers? What have you heard?

I have seen no data on use of wadcutters against human beings - not situational analysis, not wound analysis. I am aware that Deming Police Officer Royce Bennett shot at Billy Ray Gibson in 1979 with a mix of 38 hollowpoints and wadcutters but none of those rounds penetrated Gibson's pickup door. Gibson killed Bennett with one shot from a 45-70.

There is extensive data on such for 9mm, 38 Spl LHP and JHP, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 44 Magnum, and 45 ACP rounds.

WC's were not commonly carried and used in SD so I agree that most information is mostly anecdotal and not really scientifically studied. Now we are starting to get ballistic testing and such, but thats still a little different from real world data in volume, which wont be available unless people started carrying it en masse.

A similar thing happened between 44 magnum & 357 down here in the Houston Police Dept around the 70's or early 80's,

A lot depends on the hardness of the lead and shot placement.

How many LE agencies and Military carry wadcutters??

They are designed for perfect holes in paper targets.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Lots of good info. No guarantees no matter the gun or ammo. Too much dynamics. Only real world knowledge I have is as a Reserve Deputy and a robbery & homicide at a convenience store late at night. Robber-murderer borrowed a Colt Detective Special in 38 Spl and loaded with wadcutters. Shot the male owner twice and died on the spot. Both bullets complete penetration and recovered both bullets, one off the floor and the other off the counter.victim deceased, shooter caught, tried, convicted znd Jared for life. Never heard any discussion about what would have been a better round.

Gun Sam shoots wadcutters that barely penetrate a winter coat:

Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter?!? Unbelievable Results 🤯 .38 Special LRN VS Wadcutter from Snub

Why not just buy defense ammo that has proven testing supplied by a very reputable manufacturer?

We used to kill hogs with 22 shorts before butchering.

I try not to overthink it. I carry Double Tap 148-gr WC on the occasion that I’m carrying one of my Airweights. Is there a better load out there? Probably, but for my money and skill level with that load, I’ll take it.

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Some Might Say.

Because the JHP marketed defensive ammo that most have been indoctrinated into isn't always the best or only option especially out of a small lightweight sub revolver.

Just to add -- Shot placement is everything!!!! Just go to your local range and observe. Sometimes I think it safer "Down Range". just sayin"

I shot a deer with a 242gr Button Nose WC at about 30yds. I picked up wrong ammo. Model 25-5 was tuned for 250RNFP cast. At 30yds made little difference. Classic through and through but I must say dropped its blood pressure immediately. 150lb doe took 3 big bounds head on into a woven wire fence and collapsed. MV was about 800fps and I think it did better job of killing than traditional 250gr RNFP or RN.
Probably not as good as some type of expanding bullet, but better than traditional styles at short range.

I would say that wadcutters are a viable self defense option but that statement about "no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion" is categorically false.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Lately? Jim Cirillo and Bill Allard figured that out back in the late 60's early 70's using real bad guys as his experience to come to that conclusion. The human body hasn't changed much since then. Of course jhp wasn't developed they way they have been now and NYPD has had great success with the 135gr speer gold dots.

So yeah, based upon the experience of real world gunfighters I am FOR.

I love the resurrected threads, and I always say, "How did I miss this?"
I have seen so much on this because it keeps coming up as I keep reading since about 1986 or so.

FBI ballistic testing?
Marshall & Sanow and the "one-shot stop"?
"As long as it starts with a 4!" and the caliber arguments?
9mm vs. 45?
Revolver vs. auto?

The reason we never get an answer is because this is simply not the answer.
I do use the 158 grain SWC in my j frame.

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

A wadcutter might save your life, but put you in prison. Lawyers will seize on any weapon or ammunition that departs from "normal" practice as intent to kill, then proceed to define what constitutes "normal" practice. Personally, I stick with commercial HP, Gummy Tip (less pocket lint), or hardball ammunition for EDC. Hand loads of any sort would be a red flag in court.

The reverse wadcutter concept has been around since I started reloading
in the early 1970s. Even tried them myself. They expand TOO quickly.

In 32 years of LE I have never seen of or heard of a case of a lawyer seizing on ammo type used in a self-defense shooting.

Exactly. It's a frequently repeated misconception that dates back to Massad Ayoob. He claims it, yet never quotes a situation where it occurred.

In depositions for our officer-involved shootings, it was fairly routine for plaintiff's attorneys to ask if the officer(s) were using departmentally-approved ammunition, but that question was always a throwaway for our agency - we only allowed certain ammo and could prove routine qualifications and inspections. The shooting report always listed which ammo was used as well. No biggie.

good or bad for self defense ?? I personally don't want to get shot with one....just saying....

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Hipcocked & Locked