Anyone know the pros/cons of semi-wadcutters versus hollowpoints? I know the FBI used 158 grain semi-wadcutters in their .38s, and I have seen Federal Premium and Remington advertise semi-wadcutters as self-defense loads.

Anyone know the pros/cons of semi-wadcutters versus hollowpoints? I know the FBI used 158 grain semi-wadcutters in their .38s, and I have seen Federal Premium and Remington advertise semi-wadcutters as self-defense loads.

Sharp-shouldered semi-wadcutters are as effective as they ever were. In the days when hollowpoints were iffy in performance, they were probably most used. Many still carry them.

However, with the new premium hollowpoints that function as advertised, I prefer them over lead for defense. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

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Science plus Art

Some of our old Fibbies can correct me if I'm wrong, but the "FBI Loads" I've seen have all been semi-wadcutter hollowpoints. I was actually given several boxes of them by a retired FBI firearms training officer years ago. Conventional wisdom is that the LSWCHPs usually expanded from 3" and 4" barrels, not so much from 2-inchers. Our resident adherents to the "more penetration is always better" school will tell you that SWCs are as good as SWCHPs, or better. I disagree, except when the HPs fail to expand. This has been hashed out ad nauseum in many threads, so I must add......

Fanning a sleeping horse?

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Not legal advice/solicitation

Nice lookin' horse John!
There's another gentleman from Texas around here, that actually prefers them in +P from his Model 10.
Erich is more a fan of full wads (at higher than target velocities). But cooks up high grunt SWC's every so often for his .357.
I'm good with either SWC+P, full wad (in my Wife's Ti J currently) or a SWCHP @+P.

Hollow points?

Semi wadcutters?

As I sit here, with a Model 64 loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 gr +P SWCHPs on my belt, I say: GET BOTH.

Actually, I'm carrying Jessie's SWCs in my Chiefs Special today, loaded to better-than-FBI-Load velocities.

So, Folterung, what's with the handle? Welcome aboard, I think . . .

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How God has blessed us!

I too swallowed the bullet ($$$!) and switched to Buffalo FBI load in my Det Spl.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

The semi-wadcutter is the ultimate general purpose bullet. They will work well for defense, hunting, or target shooting. Of nonexpanding bullet types for defense, I prefer wadcutters to SWCs because I believe trying to reload a gun in a gunfight will likely be a waste of time. YMMV. My wife's gun is loaded with .38 wadcutters, but I prefer and use hollowpoints in my carry guns.

One thing about lead bullets: They can be driven to higher velocity, at the same pressure, than their jacketed counterparts.
The bugaboo is friction generated by the copper jacket.
Don't believe me? Tap a lead bullet down your pistol's bore sometime. Now, try tapping a copper jacketed bullet down the bore. If you get it started, you'll likely need a gunsmith to tap it back out -- so no, I don't recommend you do it but I say it to make a point.
A hard-cast 160 gr. bullet can get an honest 1,400 to 1,500 fps in a heavy-frame .357 Magnum. A jacketed bullet of the same weight strains to reach 1,400 before pressures rise to the intolerable.
Jacketed bullets are also much harder on the bore. Lead bullets do not promote wear and tear nearly as much as jacketed bullets.
I'm old school too. My S&W 637 .38 snubnose is loaded with hard-cast 158 gr. SWCs. They're accurate, hit with a decided thunk, penetrate well and don't depend on expansion to cut a good-sized hole.

Eric,I was at a gun store today looking at the Magtech 158 gr. flat tmj for target practice. with the flatpoint which is covered with brass coloring on the bullet,How are they for defense?????? Or have you tried any Magtech of this type? rz625-8

Don't generally use store-bought ammo, actually. Sorry!

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How God has blessed us!

I like how a sharp shoulder SWC chops a nice round hole. Some SWC don't have much of a shoulder so probably don't perform as well. Look at a piece of paper target shot by a full wadcutter and think about how it chops or cuts all the tissue in its path. A hollow point might start expanding after impact but won't reach its full diameter potential until several inches later,.... if the cavity doesn't get plugged and it decides to expand at all.

I generally see the signs of expansion within a couple inches when I shoot Perma-Gel. A high modern velocity cartridge will usually expand quite reliably, so I'll put my money on hollowpoints.

Out of the posse guns that I own, the "bedroom" gun for my wife and I is 60's production 4" Colt Police Positive Special loaded with Winchester's exceptional standard velocity 158 gr. LSWC. Good stopping power with excellent penetration, low blast and flash.

OK Erich, I gotta' ask?
What was the significance of his "handle" selection question about, earlier?
Enquiring minds, just got's ta' know?

The guy's name is "torture" in Kraut - I work with real psychos sometimes, and I wondered why on Earth anyone would find that appropriate to represent himself on a forum.

I note that he hasn't bothered to respond.

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How God has blessed us!

Back during the 1970's a bad guy was taken down with one shot from a .38 special out of a 2-inch Model 36. Bullet impact was just below the sternum with penetration downward, nearly perpendicular to the front of the body. Autopsy photos showed much of the small intestine was turned into mush.

The bullet? 148-grain hollow-base wadcutter loaded backward (hollow-base forward) over 3 grains of Bullseye (probably around 700 FPS out of the 2-inch barrel), a target load essentially. Recovered bullet had penetrated about 5 inches before stopping, expanded to over 0.60" diameter, remaining weight over 140 grains.

Coroner said it was the most devastating handgun wound he had ever seen.

Our police range ammo was remanufactured on automated equipment, and the hollow-base ended up loaded this way in a few rounds. The officer involved in the shoot had culled these from range target ammo.

Since then I have loaded and fired many hundreds of that load. They will not penetrate a windshield, but will penetrate side windows easily. They will frequently be deflected by a fully inflated car tire. Residential walls (1/2" drywall on each side) are penetrated, but the bullet will usually be stopped by a second wall. If a 2X4 wall stud is hit the bullet will not go through. A one-gallon milk jug filled with water will stop the bullet, but the plastic jug will be shredded and water will be thrown several feet.

All in all, absolutely devastating for a close-range defensive load, with very little blast or flash. Overpenetration is much less of a concern in residential areas. I recommend it frequently for home defense ammo in the .38 special.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

The backwards loaded wadcutters are interesting...

50% of shooters love them, 50% think they are worthless

The hollow-base wc loaded backwards will start to keyhole/tumble pretty early on. Find out where the point of impact is at various disances. Up close should be pretty impressive.

Thanks for the information everyone...find out a lot more reading these posts than searching the internet!

Back in the 70s, I loaded up a bunch of backwards 148gr. HBWCs, mostly for my aunt to keep in her little Model 36. She was very small, with tiny, but relatively strong hands. However, she was developing quite a bit of arhtritis, so couldn't tolerate much recoil. I forget just what load I used, but I believe I used a light load of Unique. I did not have a chronograph then, but I estimated the loads (from available data) at around 725fps. from the snubby. I liked them, although from the snubby, they would keyhole sometimes. From my 4" Model 10, I don't recall having keyhole problems. As noted above, they expanded like crazy, at least when they did not keyhole.

So, no explanation for why you feel that you want to identify yourself with the word "torture" in German, eh?

I have to wonder . . .

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How God has blessed us!

Sweet - I'll return the favor, sirrah. Doesn't sound like you have a whole lot to offer in terms of knowledge or judgment anyhow.

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How God has blessed us!

Erich -- if you like to talk to Kraut wierdo's, I could put you on my stepsister's mailing list. She will overwhelm you with love, bad sex jokes and soft Bavarian bier burps.

Say the word, sir, and it is done!

Heh heh, Jack

I did look that one up and had to wonder...

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Centennial Every Day

I think we tend to make too much of ammo selection. Good hits are what count! Think about it, David only had five smooth stones...

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Centennial Every Day

Yes, but little known is the fact that David's sling had extra-long straps. And even as a boy, he was known for his long arms.
Thus, the stones he was hurling were +P loads!
And let's not forget that when David previously tested his stone loads in a ballistic medium of sheep brains and pulverized locusts, penetration was greater than normal.
Of course, this was because he was using calibrated stones made by the happy slaves of the Hotep Bonded Sandstone Premium Stones co.
Any other stone might have been filled with Goliath's hair, sheepskin clothing or thick layer of desert crust and would not have been nearly as effective.

I wonder if David ever chronographed the velocity of those stones.Do you suppose he may have weighed each one on a scale in order to hurl tighter groups?

To each his own, but I'll stick with the various modern JHP loadings from Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon. Some people like hardball in their 1911s. Some people like wadcutters for defense. I think there are better choices.

If I ever had to use my 38 for self defense it would probably be loaded with a SWC bullet. That's all I cast and load because all I use my 10-6 for is informal target practice and plinking.

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Everything's been said before.

I have about 350 .45 Auto Rim cartridges loaded with the Leadhead 200 gr. SWC to just
a tad over 1,000 FPS. I'm taking the partial
box along to the range with the full mooon I just loaded up, tomorrow AM. Nice and accurate
Penetration is not a problem

R-

5grs unique and hardcast 158swc for 38spec.everything. In the 357 mag 6.5 grs of unique. Kills deer broadside lung shots just fine.

I like the 158 grain +P loads in the .38 Special and carry it as the ammo of choice in all my .38 Special revolvers. Doesn't matter to me if it is factory fodder or a hand load that utilizes the max listed Unique load from older Lyman manuals. I don't care whether the 158 grain SWCs have hollow points or not.

And BMC ladies and gentlemen, is the man I referred to earlier, that actually preferred them, out of his Model 10...

The first six rounds in both my Model 10 and Model 15 are 148 grain double-end hard cast wadcutters, loaded over 5.0 grains of Unique. My speedloaders are filled with 158 grain hard cast semi-wadcutters, loaded over 5.2 grains of Unique.

Both are very accurate.

I like to practice with my carry guns and ammo, and I can't afford to do that with premium self defense ammo.
So here's what works for me in this mod. 36

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This thread is from antiquity.

Joe

"This thread is from antiquity."

So am I.

The old stuff works so I must be an antique also!!

I sure don't want to take a hit from a 158gr cast flat pointed slug moveing on @ 1250 fps. the original .357 mag load.

My all purpose bullets are LSWC. In my .357's, my #1 carry bullet in that is #358156, in my .38's, the old 170 grain solid #358429, I haven't started with the .41's but those will be Montana Bullet Works 210 grain cast SWC's and my .44's are #429421 in 250 grain.

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Vaya con Dios

Interesting

Would be curious if you get a chance to chronograph. Buffalo Bore has a 150 (148gr?) DEWC HC (From Rim Rock Bullets) that they claim 868 out of a 2".

That's not hard at all to believe, Rob - a few years back I was playing with (Tennessee Valley Bullets - I'd been using Rainiers and Berry's swaged/plated bullets until a friend in Arkansas told me about the amazing results he was getting with TVBs) hardcast DEWCs for defensive loads and I found that velocity was easily attained (and exceeded) with presently published Unique loads. A quite accurate loading, too. The potential legal ramifications of carrying handloads aside (which of course would not be an issue with the Buffalo Bore loadings), the only real downside that I can see to using it is that it's difficult to do a speedy reload with due to the short nose.

The one on the right:


Here are the results from the first range session I did with the load in question (these velocities were on the high end - averages from snubs tend to be about 75 fps lower):

Just a quick reply to thank you for your efforts. Will review thoroughly later and re-email you.

You're most welcome, Rob, but I can't really answer your Q about the Buffalo Bore rounds as I've never fired/chrono'd them. OTOH, I'd be shocked if they did anything other than what Tim Sundles says that they do.